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Who cares if they are not willing to improve upon what's TA'd? We don't want what they TA'd, I think that's the point you are missing. We don't want a pilot group divided on retirement, SMU changes, etc...
I'm voting no because of what we lose in this TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 3666282)

So, if we enter 4a2b or 4a2c, what is the motivation for the company to give us Delta+?

Entering into 4a2b or 4a2c is a company decision just as furloughing is up to the company. We have both worked hose sections in order to mitigate and give our union opportunity to influence that decision. If it makes business sense to enter into either section or to furlough, the company will do it. To think otherwise is naive. Quick question for everybody that thinks we don’t have any leverage anymore. Why did the company agree to this contract? Why did they make the big move at the table with the mediator? We don’t know what they were told either by the mediator. The company made this offer because it benefits them in someway to have us under this TA at this time. Why? I don’t know. It could be such a good TA for the company that they feel the language that they gained and the change to the pension structure was worth the associated costs (savings) of other sections. It could also be that they wanted to resolved so they could better implement DRIVE going forward. Maybe they are hoping we take the deal and don’t demand compensation that exceeds our peers in every aspect of the agreement. If the TA gets voted down, what about the landscape has changed from 2 months ago? We were seeing buy ups in most bid packs then, we were hearing reports of slowing freight volumes, all doom and gloom. I would say we are closer to the recovery than we were 2 months ago. But that is simply due to the passage of time.

Small

Small

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianH (Post 3666307)

Okay let me try to help.

The plan is simple, but understanding all the rules takes a little time.

The first thing that should happen is the MEC should be professional enough to understand they failed to involve the pilots during the process. Being in transmit only mode did not work well. So they start a new survey to learn what they missed.

Next we the membership decide who we want the represent us. Resignations may also happen. Either way, we the membership will put in place the team we want going forward.

Next, the NC will need new blood. Fair enough. I have no doubt there are several ready to serve.

Along with the survey, the pilots will want to know the value and costs of the "efficiency Gains" in TA 1.0.

Then our new team will refocus and reengage.

Some other things to think about, we are going into a presidential election cycle. What do markets do during those times? Also the inventories stored during Covid are starting to dwindle, orders are up. We are seeing more extra pairing to bring extra freight from Asia.

In short, Even if we go into 4.a.2.b or c, it won't be for long. The training cost associated with the last round brought us New Section 24 to mitigate the training costs, which will still be high.

Further, any pilot furloughed will be welcomed at all the majors.

In short, We have to look past the smokescreens. Our future is brighter if we stand together and demand professional treatment and fair compensation.

If we take this TA, how long does it take to get back the work rules we give up in the name of "productivity gains"? I for one don't wish to find out.

I appreciate your response, but that doesn't sound like much of a plan. I'm sure that people will step up, the surveys will be better, and we won't be in 4a2b very long if at all sounds like wishful thinking more than a plan.

Yes, the pax carriers are hiring, but contracts must raise the pay rate bar, right? If that is the case, then the only major that anyone will go to is Delta. AA didn't raise the bar. United doesn't have a TA.

You and a few other NO voters have stayed consistent, but most have flip flopped as soon as Delta got a TA. Now that they padded their bank, they want those who didn't to fight for them. I'm going to look out for me and my family now and not worry about the rest. That seems to be the plan for most, until they don't get what they want. And no, I don't have to retire under this TA unless it lasts for 12+ years.

Delta got their TA well before our TA. How could someone flip flip on our TA, that didn't exist yet, when they saw Delta's TA?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westerner (Post 3666308)

That's exactly it. What we lose in this TA.

This TA negotiates away our the future of the A plan in the form of a massive giveback to the company. So massive, our union won't tell us what the company is saving at sunsetting the plan. Moronic.

Givebacks to the company. As if the company were under economic duress.

The biggest of the other givebacks as you mention above, is the precedent-setting SMU bank. A bank for a supposed 40% of lines. For you super senior FO's who have taken the pay hit to stay senior and bid LCA lines, suck it! Our NC decided this was negotiable. They decided we needed to meet the company half way. Why? We should NEVER give up LCA bidding. This would be the first for an airline like ours, to sell away our senior training lines like that. On top of that, we all know the vague language surrounding the 40% leaves room for interpretation. Vice getting *********g paid for your super senior training line. Again, moronic.

Let's not be morons.

You and a few other NO voters have stayed consistent, but most have flip flopped as soon as Delta got a TA. Now that they padded their bank, they want those who didn't to fight for them. I'm going to look out for me and my family now and not worry about the rest. That seems to be the plan for most, until they don't get what they want. And no, I don't have to retire under this TA unless it lasts for 12+ years.[/QUOTE]

Spot on. Where was the unity and resolve when there was tons of draft, AVA and Vol all sucked up while we were in negotiations? Guys calling CRS and begging for more. Now the crying, well you pretty much have a TA that you deserve if you didn't give the union the support the last two years. And for DL to get the pay rates on their TA, were they negotiating a retirement plan also, no. Lots of people complaining about the pay rates and totally ignoring the additional compensation they are getting in this TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan446 (Post 3666406)

Spot on. Where was the unity and resolve when there was tons of draft, AVA and Vol all sucked up while we were in negotiations? Guys calling CRS and begging for more. Now the crying, well you pretty much have a TA that you deserve if you didn't give the union the support the last two years. And for DL to get the pay rates on their TA, were they negotiating a retirement plan also, no. Lots of people complaining about the pay rates and totally ignoring the additional compensation they are getting in this TA.[/QUOTE]

How did Delta get such a great contract when they were flying as many green slips as we were flying draft?

None of the "don't fly draft" people can explain that.

Can you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightflyer (Post 3666407)

How did Delta get such a great contract when they were flying as many green slips as we were flying draft?

None of the "don't fly draft" people can explain that.

Can you?[/QUOTE]
Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan446 (Post 3666408)

How did Delta get such a great contract when they were flying as many green slips as we were flying draft?

None of the "don't fly draft" people can explain that.

Can you?

Yes[/QUOTE]

Go ahead. I'll wait.

UA TA2 AIP announced today. 40% raise. We are losing the game before it even starts.