What happens after a 'NO' vote.....
09-21-2015, 10:49 AM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 107
I think CD and the union Yes votes failed us more than most people understand. By bringing us this inadequate TA they established a baseline to make adjustments from. They established our willingness to give up work rules. The fact the union is selling this inadequate TA as a great deal is shameful.
If we vote this down 55% to 45%, I'm sure the company will come back with some minor improvements--A plan to 280K, KEEP 1st class deadheads, KEEP hotel in lieu of and it passes 51% to 49%--FedEx management locks us into a decade long deal and still keeps most of the concessions. FedEx even gets PBS on the property for 20% of the lines, plus they get the added bonus of dividing the crew force.
Our best hope is to follow Delta's model. Vote this down decisively near 70% or better to near 30% or less (hopeful numbers). Replace key union officials and the negotiating committee. This will clearly demonstrate that the TA is inadequate and we need to restart negotiations from the existing contract in place.
I have more faith in my fellow crewmembers than I currently do in my union. I want to personally thank the dissenting votes for having the courage to stand up for the crewforce despite pressure from the YES votes. If you haven't had the chance to read their letters please get on the FDX ALPA website and find them. Of course they are buried. They are full of detailed information and facts to support their position and I think everyone should read them before casting your vote. The union is doing their best to suppress these voices.
The union shares some of the responsiblity for dragging out this process for years. The crew force was poised for a deal or a fight and instead the union delivered us Kryptonite. For those that accuse me of being disloyal-I haven't done one draft or volunteer event in 3 years or sold back any vacation. I am a member of the PAC. I wonder how many of the YES votes can say the same things. I'm replacing loyalty with accountability as my guiding union principle.
I'm voting no and hoping our union leadership will do the right thing and step down if we can defeat this inadequate TA.
If we vote this down 55% to 45%, I'm sure the company will come back with some minor improvements--A plan to 280K, KEEP 1st class deadheads, KEEP hotel in lieu of and it passes 51% to 49%--FedEx management locks us into a decade long deal and still keeps most of the concessions. FedEx even gets PBS on the property for 20% of the lines, plus they get the added bonus of dividing the crew force.
Our best hope is to follow Delta's model. Vote this down decisively near 70% or better to near 30% or less (hopeful numbers). Replace key union officials and the negotiating committee. This will clearly demonstrate that the TA is inadequate and we need to restart negotiations from the existing contract in place.
I have more faith in my fellow crewmembers than I currently do in my union. I want to personally thank the dissenting votes for having the courage to stand up for the crewforce despite pressure from the YES votes. If you haven't had the chance to read their letters please get on the FDX ALPA website and find them. Of course they are buried. They are full of detailed information and facts to support their position and I think everyone should read them before casting your vote. The union is doing their best to suppress these voices.
The union shares some of the responsiblity for dragging out this process for years. The crew force was poised for a deal or a fight and instead the union delivered us Kryptonite. For those that accuse me of being disloyal-I haven't done one draft or volunteer event in 3 years or sold back any vacation. I am a member of the PAC. I wonder how many of the YES votes can say the same things. I'm replacing loyalty with accountability as my guiding union principle.
I'm voting no and hoping our union leadership will do the right thing and step down if we can defeat this inadequate TA.
09-21-2015, 11:06 AM
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by Commando
You are obviously Weak Minded. I have no motive other than trying to make this Profession better. And this is partly done by getting the Contracts improved each round. And the FDX TA definitely does not do this.
You work for UPS. maybe your professional life would already be better if you spent more time enhancing your contract, and less time trying to jump on the coat tails of other pilot groups.
09-21-2015, 11:10 AM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,055
Originally Posted by Rock
...And a lot more changed (or didn't change) in our contract than payrates... As a more senior, narrow body commuter, the work rules changes in the current TA are almost all an improvement for me...With all that said, I am a narrow body F/O who has assets spread across a wide enough range that I can retire at 25 years in the company under the current contract and my current seat and live extremely comfortably (financially) until the day I die...
However, you seem to try to be convincing yourself about how to justify the rush to vote this TA in, because of some apparent pressure that it has to be now, or before peak, or very soon. If you are as properly set-up as you say you are, why the rush? For the 26% over 10 years??? (2.6%/year) And, you will one day be a senior WB FO, or NB CA, or WB CA, why don't you look ahead to that instead of looking at everything through the goggles of a NB FO? You seem to be trying to convince yourself about the justification to vote yes, and not request we return to the table.
About your questioning on "what comes next?" that you seem to have a need for on every other post - from someone in our MEC, whom I spoke to in person: "we have a plan for either outcome. If the TA is rejected, we will educate the crew force, we will poll on the current TA's weaknesses, we will return to the table with what needs to change, and we will work from there, under our current contract/work rules/health care". Nothing changes, it's business as usual, and you can continue to thrive on current pay rates, as you are today.
There is no need to rush here, specially if you have been such a great and avid investor. Do you feel that need to rush? It seems like it. The company seems to want that as well, look at the timing of the TA, after years of stalling, and PBS distractions.
Remember, from our training, when you feel the push to rush, SLOW DOWN.
09-21-2015, 11:30 AM
#174
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: MD
Posts: 194
After this TA was voted 10-4 by the MEC, the union press release stated the MEC endorsed the TA. This was followed shortly after by our MEC chairman (CD) stating he would remain neutral in the process.
Contrast that with the SWAPA president. He stated the pilots of SWA deserved to see the TA and based on their board assessment, DOUBTS it will pass.
EVERYONE on the MEC knows this TA is a dog. All they had to say was we voted 10-4 to release it to the pilots for an up or down vote.
It's not just semantics. This is where "yes" voters simply follow the MEC blindly. The old commentary of "the union said it was good enough" captures the uninformed vote. That's a problem.
Have yet to speak with a line pilot YES voter (few publicly state it) who has actually read the full TA, seen all the videos, etc. the standard response is we probably won't get any better so why delay it? Pretty sad rhetoric and reflection of unity.
The good news is a growing surge of NO votes are becoming quite vocal with solid arguments against the TA. PurpleTA.com is an excellent resource for all to review. Written by a group of FedEx pilots (Yes and No voters). It hits the major elements of the TA into a cliff notes version.
With that said, I'd like to see some REAL leadership for once!
Our MEC chairman KNOWS this TA is unacceptable. His voice and his assessment should be heard BEFORE the voting window opens. He also needs to get the message out that the union is prepared with a formidable response and game plan if it's voted down.
Show some leadership!
Contrast that with the SWAPA president. He stated the pilots of SWA deserved to see the TA and based on their board assessment, DOUBTS it will pass.
EVERYONE on the MEC knows this TA is a dog. All they had to say was we voted 10-4 to release it to the pilots for an up or down vote.
It's not just semantics. This is where "yes" voters simply follow the MEC blindly. The old commentary of "the union said it was good enough" captures the uninformed vote. That's a problem.
Have yet to speak with a line pilot YES voter (few publicly state it) who has actually read the full TA, seen all the videos, etc. the standard response is we probably won't get any better so why delay it? Pretty sad rhetoric and reflection of unity.
The good news is a growing surge of NO votes are becoming quite vocal with solid arguments against the TA. PurpleTA.com is an excellent resource for all to review. Written by a group of FedEx pilots (Yes and No voters). It hits the major elements of the TA into a cliff notes version.
With that said, I'd like to see some REAL leadership for once!
Our MEC chairman KNOWS this TA is unacceptable. His voice and his assessment should be heard BEFORE the voting window opens. He also needs to get the message out that the union is prepared with a formidable response and game plan if it's voted down.
Show some leadership!
09-21-2015, 12:14 PM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by CloudSailor
You seem to be very well set-up for retirement, no need to ever even upgrade from NB FO, that is good planning on your part, congrats.
However, you seem to try to be convincing yourself about how to justify the rush to vote this TA in, because of some apparent pressure that it has to be now, or before peak, or very soon. If you are as properly set-up as you say you are, why the rush? For the 26% over 10 years??? (2.6%/year) And, you will one day be a senior WB FO, or NB CA, or WB CA, why don't you look ahead to that instead of looking at everything through the goggles of a NB FO? You seem to be trying to convince yourself about the justification to vote yes, and not request we return to the table.
About your questioning on "what comes next?" that you seem to have a need for on every other post - from someone in our MEC, whom I spoke to in person: "we have a plan for either outcome. If the TA is rejected, we will educate the crew force, we will poll on the current TA's weaknesses, we will return to the table with what needs to change, and we will work from there, under our current contract/work rules/health care". Nothing changes, it's business as usual, and you can continue to thrive on current pay rates, as you are today.
There is no need to rush here, specially if you have been such a great and avid investor. Do you feel that need to rush? It seems like it. The company seems to want that as well, look at the timing of the TA, after years of stalling, and PBS distractions.
Remember, from our training, when you feel the push to rush, SLOW DOWN.
However, you seem to try to be convincing yourself about how to justify the rush to vote this TA in, because of some apparent pressure that it has to be now, or before peak, or very soon. If you are as properly set-up as you say you are, why the rush? For the 26% over 10 years??? (2.6%/year) And, you will one day be a senior WB FO, or NB CA, or WB CA, why don't you look ahead to that instead of looking at everything through the goggles of a NB FO? You seem to be trying to convince yourself about the justification to vote yes, and not request we return to the table.
About your questioning on "what comes next?" that you seem to have a need for on every other post - from someone in our MEC, whom I spoke to in person: "we have a plan for either outcome. If the TA is rejected, we will educate the crew force, we will poll on the current TA's weaknesses, we will return to the table with what needs to change, and we will work from there, under our current contract/work rules/health care". Nothing changes, it's business as usual, and you can continue to thrive on current pay rates, as you are today.
There is no need to rush here, specially if you have been such a great and avid investor. Do you feel that need to rush? It seems like it. The company seems to want that as well, look at the timing of the TA, after years of stalling, and PBS distractions.
Remember, from our training, when you feel the push to rush, SLOW DOWN.
Originally Posted by The Walrus
Rock, why in your mind does this have to be concluded prior to peak?
If it is not good enough, it's not good enough.
Me: It doesn't. I was responding to someone who thought it could be.
And a few posts later....
Me:I have never once stated we need to have a new TA by peak. I am simply refuting the suggestion by others that we can.
And just recently, on the previous page to your post....
Me: And just to lead turn all the inevitable posts I am about to get asking why I think a TA must be approved before peak.... I DON'T.
All that in just the last couple pages Cloudsailor. Your reading comprehension is in dire need of improvement.
As far as who is actually rushing...remember those goofy yellow lanyards we've been wearing for months? If you still have yours, reread the big bold words on it. If you had a chance to see the billboard near the AOC, what does it say? Heck, I seem to recall your avatar on this site used to say "Contract NOW!" but I could be completely wrong on that and if so I apologize. The only people looking for a new TA prior to this peak are no voters. I am simply pointing out why I believe that is a pipe dream.
I didn't expect a contract for two more years. The current TA was a complete surprise. I think my original timeline will hold if we vote this down, and I have been on record for weeks on this site saying so.
09-21-2015, 06:04 PM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 107
To all the crewmembers posting information about all the concessions, weaknesses and failures included in this TA thanks keep up the good work. I hope you continue to do this and reach out to all your fellow crewmembers here at FedEx as well, because our union is bent on selling this TA instead of giving us the facts and letting us decide for ourselves.
Please don't be deterred by guys like Rock who try to undermine our effort. It will take a grass roots effort from us to defeat this and potentially replace the negotiating committee and some union officers to get the contract we have earned. I'd rather keep what we have than accept a decade long contract extension with work rule concessions.
The union has a budget and an agenda and I believe they are purposefully not providing the membership all the information regarding the negatives in this TA.
Please make sure you get people to read all the letters from the "NO" votes buried on the FedEx ALPA website. You have to go under the LEC tabs and then look under messages. Their letters are full of great facts, lots of details and information that I believe should be a part of all the professional union video productions and meetings.
Something else to consider is if we get the contract we deserve ALPA will have to work much harder to try and appease everyone of their other airlines as they try to negotiate a deal that rivals ours. It might be in ALPA's best interests for us to make minor improvements and accept some concessions so that they don't have other airlines frustrated with them as they go into other airline contract negotiations. ALPA National can do math and I'm sure they realize based our financials alone we should have a much better contract than any other airline. However if they help us get that contract they will have to answer questions like: Why can't we get our A plan back? Why do we still have PBS? Why don't we get hotel rooms when we have long sits between flights? From all the other airlines they represent--You get the idea.
Remember despite all the dues we paid during ALPA's worst decade ever, ALPA dropped us at the 11th hour when it came to flight time duty time, without offering any type of alternate plan or time frame for reasonable rest protocols that would work for cargo. Then they agreed to take fatigue out of the top 10 critical issues virtually guaranteeing that we will never get reasonable rest rules for cargo.
I'm not sure how much I trust ALPA National to make sure we get what we have earned either. I know ALPA national doesn't consider us cargo pilots second class citizens right?
Please don't be deterred by guys like Rock who try to undermine our effort. It will take a grass roots effort from us to defeat this and potentially replace the negotiating committee and some union officers to get the contract we have earned. I'd rather keep what we have than accept a decade long contract extension with work rule concessions.
The union has a budget and an agenda and I believe they are purposefully not providing the membership all the information regarding the negatives in this TA.
Please make sure you get people to read all the letters from the "NO" votes buried on the FedEx ALPA website. You have to go under the LEC tabs and then look under messages. Their letters are full of great facts, lots of details and information that I believe should be a part of all the professional union video productions and meetings.
Something else to consider is if we get the contract we deserve ALPA will have to work much harder to try and appease everyone of their other airlines as they try to negotiate a deal that rivals ours. It might be in ALPA's best interests for us to make minor improvements and accept some concessions so that they don't have other airlines frustrated with them as they go into other airline contract negotiations. ALPA National can do math and I'm sure they realize based our financials alone we should have a much better contract than any other airline. However if they help us get that contract they will have to answer questions like: Why can't we get our A plan back? Why do we still have PBS? Why don't we get hotel rooms when we have long sits between flights? From all the other airlines they represent--You get the idea.
Remember despite all the dues we paid during ALPA's worst decade ever, ALPA dropped us at the 11th hour when it came to flight time duty time, without offering any type of alternate plan or time frame for reasonable rest protocols that would work for cargo. Then they agreed to take fatigue out of the top 10 critical issues virtually guaranteeing that we will never get reasonable rest rules for cargo.
I'm not sure how much I trust ALPA National to make sure we get what we have earned either. I know ALPA national doesn't consider us cargo pilots second class citizens right?
09-21-2015, 06:10 PM
#177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by FDXAV8R
To all the crewmembers posting information about all the concessions, weaknesses and failures included in this TA thanks keep up the good work. I hope you continue to do this and reach out to all your fellow crewmembers here at FedEx as well, because our union is bent on selling this TA instead of giving us the facts and letting us decide for ourselves.
Please don't be deterred by guys like Rock who try to undermine our effort. It will take a grass roots effort from us to defeat this and potentially replace the negotiating committee and some union officers to get the contract we have earned. I'd rather keep what we have than accept a decade long contract extension with work rule concessions.
The union has a budget and an agenda and I believe they are purposefully not providing the membership all the information regarding the negatives in this TA.
Please make sure you get people to read all the letters from the "NO" votes buried on the FedEx ALPA website. You have to go under the LEC tabs and then look under messages. Their letters are full of great facts, lots of details and information that I believe should be a part of all the professional union video productions and meetings.
Something else to consider is if we get the contract we deserve ALPA will have to work much harder to try and appease everyone of their other airlines as they try to negotiate a deal that rivals ours. It might be in ALPA's best interests for us to make minor improvements and accept some concessions so that they don't have other airlines frustrated with them as they go into other airline contract negotiations. ALPA National can do math and I'm sure they realize based our financials alone we should have a much better contract than any other airline. However if they help us get that contract they will have to answer questions like: Why can't we get our A plan back? Why do we still have PBS? Why don't we get hotel rooms when we have long sits between flights? From all the other airlines they represent--You get the idea.
Remember despite all the dues we paid during ALPA's worst decade ever, ALPA dropped us at the 11th hour when it came to flight time duty time, without offering any type of alternate plan or time frame for reasonable rest protocols that would work for cargo. Then they agreed to take fatigue out of the top 10 critical issues virtually guaranteeing that we will never get reasonable rest rules for cargo.
I'm not sure how much I trust ALPA National to make sure we get what we have earned either. I know ALPA national doesn't consider us cargo pilots second class citizens right?
Please don't be deterred by guys like Rock who try to undermine our effort. It will take a grass roots effort from us to defeat this and potentially replace the negotiating committee and some union officers to get the contract we have earned. I'd rather keep what we have than accept a decade long contract extension with work rule concessions.
The union has a budget and an agenda and I believe they are purposefully not providing the membership all the information regarding the negatives in this TA.
Please make sure you get people to read all the letters from the "NO" votes buried on the FedEx ALPA website. You have to go under the LEC tabs and then look under messages. Their letters are full of great facts, lots of details and information that I believe should be a part of all the professional union video productions and meetings.
Something else to consider is if we get the contract we deserve ALPA will have to work much harder to try and appease everyone of their other airlines as they try to negotiate a deal that rivals ours. It might be in ALPA's best interests for us to make minor improvements and accept some concessions so that they don't have other airlines frustrated with them as they go into other airline contract negotiations. ALPA National can do math and I'm sure they realize based our financials alone we should have a much better contract than any other airline. However if they help us get that contract they will have to answer questions like: Why can't we get our A plan back? Why do we still have PBS? Why don't we get hotel rooms when we have long sits between flights? From all the other airlines they represent--You get the idea.
Remember despite all the dues we paid during ALPA's worst decade ever, ALPA dropped us at the 11th hour when it came to flight time duty time, without offering any type of alternate plan or time frame for reasonable rest protocols that would work for cargo. Then they agreed to take fatigue out of the top 10 critical issues virtually guaranteeing that we will never get reasonable rest rules for cargo.
I'm not sure how much I trust ALPA National to make sure we get what we have earned either. I know ALPA national doesn't consider us cargo pilots second class citizens right?
I'll cast my "no" vote on the first day. I suggest all do the same and watch the show...
09-21-2015, 07:07 PM
#178
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by golfandfly
I trust ALPA national about as far as I can throw them. Not saying there is a better option, but they're happy getting another "industry leading" contract inked. They take the extra dues money and move on. It's the easiest option, negotiations are expensive. Take the money and run.
I'll cast my "no" vote on the first day. I suggest all do the same and watch the show...
I'll cast my "no" vote on the first day. I suggest all do the same and watch the show...
Hopefully guys will continue to work BLG. If the company is short, its their fault but we should feel no obligation to go the extra mile to help them out.
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