Originally Posted by frozenboxhauler

I think you should vote for the good of the group, rather than for yourself. I have always voted that way and will continue to do so.

I guess it 's kind of a Mr. Spock thing but I consider myself a "unionist".

Cheers,

fbh

Originally Posted by FDXLAG

If we were voting for the good of the group we wouldn't have Seniority based pay rates. From each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs and all that. Was that quote Spock or Elizabeth Warren?

Originally Posted by pipe

Point One - Prices go up - it's called inflation. When you pay more for a gallon of milk than you did in 1995, do you get a bigger gallon? Don't think so.

Point Two - When they come to us next, they will remember that our resolve was weak and they will bring less to the table.

Your thought process would lead many to another conclusion.

Pipe

Originally Posted by Laughing_Jakal

I was furious when I read the TA after I spoke to a block rep that described it as "Fedex brought real money to the table....except for improving the A plan."

The invective filled texts I sent to my close friends were populated by 65% of the words starting with the 6th letter of the alphabet.

I stepped away....and now a week or two later, I scan the posts here and on FB. With the emotion now drained....I am still not happy with this TA....however, I look at what was achieved and what we give back.

My estimation of a break-even point EVEN IF WE GET WHAT WE WANT, AND unknowns break in our favor....will be somewhat North of 10 years. I have 15 years left on property. My crystal ball gets fuzzy beyond about 8.

I am ****ed about the age 54 thing.

I do not see the "Staggering give-backs" that most proclaim to see....and yes I have read the TA until my eyes clouded over. When I pay more money for a product, like the company I expect more for the increased price I am paying. Those give-backs don't seem unreasonable.

Before I read Albie's Post and BR's summation, I regretfully had come to the same conclusion they published. Interestingly enough, in all the debates I've seen about things in the last 12-15 years, it turns out that I have always come to similar conclusions as AH and BR. I even decided not to run as Block Rep when BR did after I threw my hat in the ring, mostly because he and I had almost the same positions and he was more likely to be successful as a rep than I was.

So when I read their posts, even though I was hoping I was just being fooled by the dark side, there was the sickening feeling that I was right in slowly morphing to a "Yes".

I used to be a conservative hard-core Republican.....I now consider myself to be a conservative libertarian, primarily because I noticed that the Republican party doesn't know how to win....even when they win. They bypass hard earned gains on principal to gain even more and eventually lose the game. The Democrats on the other hand win, even when they lose, because they never admit defeat even when they are defeated, and take any small win....and move the ball forward. Even when they are outnumbered and out argued, they NEVER EVER give ground.

I am not by any means saying I advocate an unprincipled approach, but even though this TA is not near what we deserve or close to what I wanted.....it moves the ball forward. While I don't like the small efficiencies we are allowing, the ball has been moved forward. Whether it be bidding for training, proffering trips, joining the trip enroute and undeviating, rolling banks, while not as much as I would like or think we deserve, the ball has been moved forward. We haven't yielded on the showstoppers like Vacation (I always considered VTO's to be PBS anyway) While I don't like the age 54 carve out, and other unpalatable aspects, I don't have a choice of having it or not. I don't have a line item veto.

I AM first and foremost a FOR PROFIT entity. And while it does not provide the profit I KNOW we deserve, it largely addressed a majority of our polled cornerstones. Before I get labeled a "FYIGM" guy, I believe our support of the Negotiating Committee was my contribution to our collective good.

I believe the Negotiating Committee did the best they could....not the best anyone could, but the best they could.....evidenced by the fact that they came back with this TA. If they could have done better, I think they'd still be at the table. I believe a "notional dream team" NC could have done better, but we had a real team of individuals that made a good faith effort to look out for the good of the whole pilot group to the best of their ability. That was their responsibility. Ours was to support them. Our job now is an individual action, up until the vote is tallied, then we must abide by the collective will.

I do not believe a "Dream Team" MEC and NC will come out of the woodwork now. If they exist, I'm still not impressed because we needed them two years ago. I just don't think they're out there.

But now I have an Individual vote, that vote is purely my responsibility. I need to vote my best interest. I expect you vote yours...whichever way that may be. I'm waiting until the last minute to vote either yes or no, in order to make sure I don't do something out of fear or anger. I made the mistake of putting Mad before Money after the last two elections thinking the sky was falling and lost a lot of potential gains in the stock market (going to cash) thinking the economy was about to fail....I will not make these kinds of decisions under the influence of emotion again.

In the end, this TA moves the ball forward for me. Though I do not like some of the language that will become memorialized in this TA that will effect the rest of my career....I will not let that FEAR bully me into a "NO", Nor will I let some short term cash cajole me into a "YES".

I don't fly extra purely because it's not lucrative enough for me to do so under current book. I don't foresee that changing if this TA passes as there is still not enough compensation to warrant sacrificing my time off.

Bottom-line, I will be paid more money for essentially doing the same thing as I am doing now. Not enough, but more money will be in my pocket for the next 10 years than if we press TOGA. There are too many unknowns outside that timeframe to not secure these gains....hell...I might even be dead before that.

Remember in "Dumb and Dumber" when they guy asks the girl "what are my chances of going out with you?"....she answers "1 in a 1000"...he replies "Soooo I STILL have a chance". I think my possibility of hitting a home run given the current real situation we are in is much like that....and my initial strident NO vote was a lot like thinking I have a chance with the hottie.

It's not my low-self esteem that badgers me into accepting less....but it is important that we know the critical difference between accepting less because of a low self-image.... and pragmatism. Just as there is a critical difference between the real possibility to achieve greater success and HUBRIS.

So I will vote "YES"...and bite my tongue and hold my breath. I used to think I would vote "NO" and that it wouldn't matter because I figured the pilot group would probably vote "Yes" and I could continue to be a member of the 32%. Now I am voting "Yes" for the first thing in a long time....and I believe that probably won't matter as I believe there is a good possibility of it being defeated. Either way I am bound by the collective decision. But right now is the only time I am given the opportunity to vote with respect to purely my own self-interest.

I believe, with regret, that it's in my best interest to take the gain, move the ball forward, and not give ground. Sometime in the next 10 years, the company will need something from us. What we do with it then will be biased by a higher baseline if we accept the TA.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, and I am not interested in a point by point debate of my position..I'm just airing my thought process. Those who are fence sitting, might want to know that there are some who may not like the TA, but don't view a "YES" vote a capitulation, but a pragmatic approach to moving the ball. Even with a YES vote, we can still empower a much more aggressive MEC culture and continue to move the ball forward.

Think of it like working out, fixing your teeth, getting a new wardrobe, and haircut...having a good time with the 6/10.....then when you have the nerve and a good chance of success.....dating the "hot chick"

(as a side note, I have found that the "hot chick" was never quite as "hot" as you expected and rather a disappointment considering all the effort taken to achieve "Success".)

You can throw spears now.....signing off.....

I can't believe I agree with FDXLAG on this one.

Jakal

Originally Posted by Overnitefr8

It could be the writers reading their own threads over and over trying to convince themselves if they made the right decisions.