newflyboy

HI

Im new here and i've read some pretty great threads on here already regarding becoming a pilot as well as using ATP flight school as one path to get there. I am just looking for any reviews, recommendations, etc on ATP or American Flyers Flight Schools and if anyone else has utilized them to start their career as a pilot. Is it recommended and what other paths has someone taken to become a full time pilot.

My son desires becoming a pilot and is already taking lessons for his private license. He graduates HS next year and needs to make some decisions. AFROTC was one option he was considering but after talking with a captain in the AF there is no guarantee at all that the AF will pay ANY of your college tuition even after going through the whole ROTC program. Didn't know that. Plus there's alot more involved just dedicating yourself to that whole process so he needs to decide if that's right for him - OR - do the ATP (or American Flyers) route and do it on the civilian side. If he does does he still need any college? Do airlines still require this if he's got 1500 hours/exp through ATP in the end? I hear about shortages in the airline industry so perhaps the college degree is not as important as it once was. I would just love to hear from you and glean any additional insight and experiences that I can share with my son.

Thanks in advance!

Brian

Adlerdriver

I'm a product of AFROTC and I'm currently working at FedEx.

While I'm sure this forum could produce a spirited debate over the actual value and need for a bachelor's degree for pilots, the reality is that a degree is preferred or required by most major airlines. Not getting one is going to limit your son's options and casting the widest net as he pursues an aviation career is going to be severely hampered. The other consideration is what his future looks like should circumstances conspire to take him out of aviation. Should he lose his FAA medical clearance later in life, get furloughed from his airline with no job prospects or any number of other situations many here have encountered, do you really want him to face starting a different career path with only a HS diploma? He should get a degree - 'nuff said there.

You may not want "a captain" in the USAF to be the reason your son opts not to pursue ROTC. I'm not sure what this individual was trying to tell you, but what you came away from that discussion with doesn't quite make sense. AFROTC has several types of scholarships. Depending on which one your son receives, it may pay all or a portion of his tuition and books. There are 3 and 4 year scholarships. Some restrict your major to certain fields currently in demand by the USAF. The unrestricted 4-year scholarships are extremely competitive but available. If he was going to study a technical field like engineering anyway, that may not matter. The bottom line is, if he applies for and receives an AFROTC scholarship, the AF is going to pay whatever amount of his tuition the scholarship covers.

Now, some students who don't receive a scholarship can enter the program regardless and hope to earn one at a later point. There's no guarantee they will. Perhaps that's what your AF captain meant.

There's also no guarantee he will receive a pilot's slot through AFROTC. Until I was a senior in college, my engineering scholarship precluded me from applying for a pilot's slot. Every time I asked I was told I could apply but receiving one would require me to give up my scholarship since, at the time, the AF needed engineers more than they needed pilots. I was too poor to take that option and luckily the situation changed senior year.

There are many routes to a military cockpit from ROTC, service academies, Officer Training School and the Air National Guard. There are pros and cons to them all. ANG or OTS may offer more certainty in gaining access to pilot training but typically require the individual to fund his own education. The AF academy is typically a good path to a pilot slot but if your son wants to go that route he better get started. That process is long and involved and starts now (if he's entering his senior year this fall). I would make sure you look into as many military options as possible before your son decides that's not for him. In my opinion, there's no better way to enter the aviation career. Most of us who flew in the military wouldn't trade that experience for anything.

I can't speak much to the civilian training path other than to say it's damn expensive. If you're going to help your son fund a 4-year college degree and flight training, you're going to be spending hundreds of thousands. There's also no guarantee that pilot jobs will be available once he's done with training. Hiring is booming now but that's not always going to be the case.

sourdough44

One generally needs a 4 year degree somewhere in the process, there are a few stories without one, a few.

The military is usually a great option, for college $$ & better yet flight training, if one is capable and so inclined. There is much more to it that just strapping in a plane and training. It's not cut out for everyone.

At his age he can dip his toe in a few areas. There is a local CAP unit, just to get some feel. He could take a private pilot ground school, minimal expense.

If $$$ is available he could steer towards one of the aviation flight schools, Emery Riddle, UND, Purdue, and a host of slightly lesser knowns.

Where you live can have a bearing on recommendations. It's not the kind of career one can just sit back & let it happen, initiative is needed.

Adlerdriver

It's also difficult to advise someone in this situation when their motivations and specific career goals are unknown.
Has he always wanted to be a pilot?
Interest from an early age due to exposure via family or friends?
Strong desire to serve in the military?
Airline pilot neighbor who never seems to work with a nice sports car in the driveway telling him how great it is?
How much flying has he already done?
Does he know he wants to be an airline pilot specifically or just that he wants to fly in some capacity?

A few more specifics about his situation will allow someone to give him better advice. For example, if his ultimate goal is to become an airline pilot and he's considering the military only as a means to that end, then I would recommend he not pursue military service. I'm not saying a follow on airline career can't be one option he leaves on the table once his military service is complete. However, the commitment required to pursue and succeed as a military officer and pilot is probably not going to be there for someone who is simply trying to fill a resume for a future job.

newflyboy

This is all super advice and really appreciate all!

We do have a pilot in the family. My brother (his uncle) was a navy FO for 20 years than moved to work for United Airlines. It was a long journey for him. Not sure my son fully understands that but to a degree I think for my son the military is a means to an end... meaning, its a path towards getting to commercial pilot and having uncle sam pay for some of it is a nice idea. He doesn't necessarily have the gung-ho military spirit of fighting for the country.

I've read so much about how hard it is to become a pilot and how much expense and schooling is involved...Then there isn't even that much to look forward to (salary-wise) once you finally make it into some line of aviation. Sounds like the passion REALLY needs to be there (I mean really) or your dead in the water before you start. This is all about the love of flying (period)... since the money isn't there except for the very small percentage of captains in the wide bodies out there someplace that manage to slink into those positions. My son is already taking lessons for his PPL and really loves it. Does it mean he's a born aviator... not sure. And he's not even 100% sure. He's going through a period of doubt and decisions right now so I am just trying to steer him best I can as a dad with the most relevant info available to make informed decisions.

Adlerdriver

No one expects every person considering military service to do it simply out of a pure, self-less desire to serve our country. However, a good understanding of the potential sacrifices expected and that much will be expected in return for the investment made for his training is important. I was looking for a way to pay for college but I liked the concept of military service as well. For many career paths within the military, there are educational benefits, some have eventual bonus money to stay in and in many cases, the ability to transfer skills obtained to the private sector. There’s nothing wrong with that. Learning to fly on Uncle Sam’s dime is definitely a great way to do that, but there’s some serious baggage that comes along with that. You son needs to understand what he’s getting himself into. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t think anyone truly looks forward to the opportunity to “fight for the country” or has to be gung-ho about that prospect. They just need to be willing to raise their hand and commit to do it. A fire-fighter probably doesn’t sit around hoping people’s houses catch fire, but he wants to be there to do his duty when they do.


I think success in any endeavor is more likely if one is passionate about it. Whether one chooses the military or civilian path toward some version of an aviation career, without a true passion for the entire experience, the chances of success are lower. In my opinion, the level of personal commitment and sacrifice required taking either route just wouldn’t be worth it if someone was just doing it just as a job to provide income. A real love of flying makes the learning process and the training an experience to enjoy rather than just another education milestone to complete on the way to an end goal. Not everyone is going to make it (or even want to make it) to a major airline job. They may not hit what some might call the pinnacle of the industry based on pay or lifestyle, but they may find their niche. If they’re happy doing what they do and can live the life that suits them, that sounds like success to me. I’m guessing that’s more likely to happen to someone in aviation if they truly love flying.


No “slinking” required. Just time. Most airlines base everything from schedules to pay and aircraft one flies on seniority. The pilot who’s been there the longest picks first. Everyone else goes in turn after him down the line. As far as the money being there? I guess that’s all relative. Most pilots currently working in the US at major airlines make pretty good money even if they’re not wide body captains. But, you’re right, not everyone is going to make it to a point where they can achieve maximum pay if that’s their main goal.


As I mentioned previously, the military pilot option has several routes. There are opportunities to take one or more these routes approaching quickly and if they're missed they're gone. If his grades and high school performance allow him to pursue an appointment to a service academy and he doesn’t act on that soon, that chance will be lost. The same applies to ROTC. Yes, there are still opportunities to enter that program once enrolled in college, but his first and best chance is during the college application process in high school. OTS and ANG opportunities occur after college. My point is that civilian flying programs you pay for will always be there and it’s rare for someone who has the money and the desire to be turned away. There are finite, time sensitive opportunities to earn the chance at a set of AF or Navy/Marine wings. He can always decide to say no thank you to an academy nomination or a ROTC scholarship and go a different direction. He can even decide that after his first year of college with a ROTC scholarship. But if he’s even giving a military career as a pilot the smallest consideration, until he’s sure that’s not for him, I highly recommend he pursues all routes available.

Jingles

Hi, I would like to chime in, as I am in exactly the same boat (HS Senior this fall). Definitely considering AFROTC for college scholarships. I think USAFA is out because I am leaning towards a true "college experience".

Adlerdriver, I want to know what you thought about active duty. I am assuming you flew fighters? Would you recommend fighters vs other equipment? But mostly, did you stay beyond the 10 yr commitment and was it pretty easy for yourself and others to land a job once you left? Finally, this is kind of a personal question but in your experience was AD tough on relationships, etc? I understand its obviously not for everyone.

I guess what I am try to get at is would you do it again?

Thanks a lot!

Jingles

Brian, if you/your son are interested, here are some scholarship stats (2012) from a quick search: https://www.serviceacademyforums.com...or-2012.25767/

Another option is there are a few community colleges and universities that are pretty competitive in their pricing. (Not ERAU, UND, etc) I think they just need to be found. One near me is Mt San Antonio College (CA). Typically a 4 year degree in something like aviation management, which as you've probably read is not the best degree to fall back on as a plan B.

Finally, if your son is inclined to engineering and academics there are some other good tuition assistance programs. I just found this one from the DoD: https://smart.asee.org/ and there is another from the NSA for computer science.

Edit: Just a heads up, applying to SMART would be the year he is already accepted into a college. So not this summer. Technically, if accepted tuition doesn't kick in until sophomore year, i think.

Jingles

Also Brian, you can explore how much pilots make using the calculator on APC: Airline Profile Categories | AirlinePilotCentral.com . Plug in the pay rate and monthly guarantee, multiply by 12 and voilą. 2nd year FOs at a major airline are making $100k+. So the money is definitely there.

Regionals are where the money's not. Correct me if I'm wrong but AF AD pilots have a good chance of going right to the majors, correct?

sourdough44

You mentioned the Son is taking flight lessons, 'and really loves them'. That's something to go on.

Most any worthwhile endeavor has no guarantee how it comes out the other end. Of course we hear about the health care field, or even to 'be a pharmacist'. That's all well & good if one has interest in that field. We've all seen some graduate in a seemingly attractive vocation, then have little interest in the job it leads to.

As mentioned, just have a backup plan or two. When starting out one doesn't need to envision the right seat of a 777 in 4 years to be considered successful. I like to deal with what's in the near term, while having flexible plans for further down the road.

A piloting job is certainly attainable for a motivated student starting out today. There's always that $$ factor, nice to keep any loans reasonable.