Mixing training under p. 61 at p. 141 school
12-03-2018, 05:33 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
Part 61. - 40 hrs of which 10 solo
Part 141 - 35 hrs of which 5 solo
Part 61 - use of an approved syllabus is recommended
Part 141 - use of an approved syllabus is mandatory
141 therefore doesn’t give you a whole lot of flexibility if you struggle as a student. Instructor can’t say hey this ain’t working something is not clicking let’s do another lesson and come back to this later.
141 forces you to repeat and repeat and repeat a lesson as you cannot do lessons out of sequence.
Example:
Student struggles with landings.
Now instead of just repeating the same ad nauseum under Part 61 the instructor is free to get some other dual requirements out of the way such as the 3 hr instrument, 3 hr night and the dual cross country flights without frustrating the efforts and keeping the student motivated.
People don’t learn the same skills at the same pace.
I’ve had students that soloed early and I’ve had students that soloed at 30hrs and they still both finished at 45hrs.
You can only do that under Part 61.
YOU NEED FORMAL GROUND SCHOOL
What you need to understand stand is that PPL and IR and CPL have overlapping knowledge areas such as regulations, weather and airspace just to name a couple.
If you don’t learn it right during Private you’ll pay (again) later in the process.
There’s saving money and selling yourself short.
The advantage of 141 is that you can start your IR right after your PPL and you can do the required time building on an IFR flight plan later which makes it more valuable time. It also much safer at night.
I’m going to use some rounded up numbers
100 % Part 61:
50 hrs PPL
50 hrs XC time building
50 hrs IR
50 hrs IFR XC timebuilding
50 hrs dual for CPL and CFI
250 hrs TT
100 % 141
50hrs PPL
50hrs IR
120 hrs CPL course which is mostly dual
This has a metric ton more dual instruction and doesn’t allow you the flexibility in the time building and combining lessons.
The problem here is that I’m trying to explain something that requires knowledge of 61/141 syllabus and regulations to understand.
Technically 141 requires only 35hrs for the Instrument rating but I’ve NEVER had a student finish it in 35hrs and both KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they were doing.
I worked for a very good school and our average for the IR was 42hrs.
Now you also have to consider start up and taxi and travel time to a practice area and vicinity of airports that have the approaches that you need to practice and so on.
Nearest airport that had an ILS approach was 30 miles away which is 15 min flying time each way.
Now you try and use this time in a valuable manner but Part 141 lessons do not assume or include “travel time”.
Lessons calls for an hour.
Well yes but you’ve been #5 for take off and they’re using a different runway and that adds time to fly the instrument approaches the lesson calls for.
Makes any sense?
This Conmercial syllabus has 110hrs dual instruction. Schools have tos tuck to their syllabus like glue and will be penalized if they deviate:
http://skybnd.com/wp-content/uploads...ommercial1.pdf
You can wring a ton more useful experience out of a hybrid 61-141-61 program.
What I’m going to ask you to do is talk with an Instructor that understands this.
Now I’m going to make you an offer you can’t refuse.
If you can’t find anybody to explain it to you then send me a PM and I will call you and talk to you.
Part 141 - 35 hrs of which 5 solo
Part 61 - use of an approved syllabus is recommended
Part 141 - use of an approved syllabus is mandatory
141 therefore doesn’t give you a whole lot of flexibility if you struggle as a student. Instructor can’t say hey this ain’t working something is not clicking let’s do another lesson and come back to this later.
141 forces you to repeat and repeat and repeat a lesson as you cannot do lessons out of sequence.
Example:
Student struggles with landings.
Now instead of just repeating the same ad nauseum under Part 61 the instructor is free to get some other dual requirements out of the way such as the 3 hr instrument, 3 hr night and the dual cross country flights without frustrating the efforts and keeping the student motivated.
People don’t learn the same skills at the same pace.
I’ve had students that soloed early and I’ve had students that soloed at 30hrs and they still both finished at 45hrs.
You can only do that under Part 61.
YOU NEED FORMAL GROUND SCHOOL
What you need to understand stand is that PPL and IR and CPL have overlapping knowledge areas such as regulations, weather and airspace just to name a couple.
If you don’t learn it right during Private you’ll pay (again) later in the process.
There’s saving money and selling yourself short.
The advantage of 141 is that you can start your IR right after your PPL and you can do the required time building on an IFR flight plan later which makes it more valuable time. It also much safer at night.
I’m going to use some rounded up numbers
100 % Part 61:
50 hrs PPL
50 hrs XC time building
50 hrs IR
50 hrs IFR XC timebuilding
50 hrs dual for CPL and CFI
250 hrs TT
100 % 141
50hrs PPL
50hrs IR
120 hrs CPL course which is mostly dual
This has a metric ton more dual instruction and doesn’t allow you the flexibility in the time building and combining lessons.
The problem here is that I’m trying to explain something that requires knowledge of 61/141 syllabus and regulations to understand.
Technically 141 requires only 35hrs for the Instrument rating but I’ve NEVER had a student finish it in 35hrs and both KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they were doing.
I worked for a very good school and our average for the IR was 42hrs.
Now you also have to consider start up and taxi and travel time to a practice area and vicinity of airports that have the approaches that you need to practice and so on.
Nearest airport that had an ILS approach was 30 miles away which is 15 min flying time each way.
Now you try and use this time in a valuable manner but Part 141 lessons do not assume or include “travel time”.
Lessons calls for an hour.
Well yes but you’ve been #5 for take off and they’re using a different runway and that adds time to fly the instrument approaches the lesson calls for.
Makes any sense?
This Conmercial syllabus has 110hrs dual instruction. Schools have tos tuck to their syllabus like glue and will be penalized if they deviate:
http://skybnd.com/wp-content/uploads...ommercial1.pdf
You can wring a ton more useful experience out of a hybrid 61-141-61 program.
What I’m going to ask you to do is talk with an Instructor that understands this.
Now I’m going to make you an offer you can’t refuse.
If you can’t find anybody to explain it to you then send me a PM and I will call you and talk to you.
Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk
12-03-2018, 05:52 PM
#22
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,083
Well there are advantages and disadvantages to both 61 and 141 training.
It takes like 20 pages to explain all the minutiae so I’m not doing that here lol.
Again it’s all in the execution so it’s hard if not impossible to say that one is by definition better then the other.
Same as not every combination is suitable for every potential student.
It takes like 20 pages to explain all the minutiae so I’m not doing that here lol.
Again it’s all in the execution so it’s hard if not impossible to say that one is by definition better then the other.
Same as not every combination is suitable for every potential student.
12-03-2018, 10:26 PM
#23
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by chronomaster31
Holy crap 110 hours of dual? No wonder it's so expensive
The last aircraft type I was trained on had more than 110 hours of dual just for that one specific aircraft, initially. Then another 25 hours of line training, and 100 hours of time on the line before I was considered "trained."
What's being discussed here is just scratching the surface, to get started.
12-04-2018, 06:50 PM
#24
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Training doesn't end with getting basic pilot certification. There comes a point when intensive training is required for each mand and model of aircraft one flies.
The last aircraft type I was trained on had more than 110 hours of dual just for that one specific aircraft, initially. Then another 25 hours of line training, and 100 hours of time on the line before I was considered "trained."
What's being discussed here is just scratching the surface, to get started.
The last aircraft type I was trained on had more than 110 hours of dual just for that one specific aircraft, initially. Then another 25 hours of line training, and 100 hours of time on the line before I was considered "trained."
What's being discussed here is just scratching the surface, to get started.
12-04-2018, 07:05 PM
#25
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,023
Originally Posted by wyomingpilot1
Is this kind of intensive model specific training usually paid for by whoever is hiring you to fly that plane?
That kind of "intensive training model" is called "flight training," and its the nature of flying from the time you're a student pilot until you're either retired or dead.
When considering the training received for initial pilot certification, yes, you'll usually pay for it. Most of us did.
Many of us obtained additional training, and many of bore those costs, too. Every aircraft you fly, every type of flying you do, requires training. Initially a pilot pays for much of it himself or herself.
One ought not balk at getting good training. It's the least expensive money you'll ever spend. One ought not seek the cheapest option. It may be the most expensive money you'll ever spend.
12-06-2018, 03:45 PM
#26
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 8
There is good training and then there is an inflated training industry based totally on suckering people in to pay high prices for things they don't know much about. No balking at good training here, only looking for tips on minimizing flight training expenses. Last winter, there was a yoga teacher training here in town that offered to certify you as a yoga teacher. I was interested thinking it would cost like 200 bucks or something but it was 3000 dollars. I think I would have to teach yoga here in this Wyoming town of 10,000 for 500 years to recoup the investment. I'm sure it was good training.
Last edited by wyomingpilot1; 12-06-2018 at 03:57 PM.
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