Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Career Builder > Flight Schools and Training
Which training program to go through? >

Which training program to go through?

Notices
Flight Schools and Training Ratings, building hours, airmanship, CFI topics

Which training program to go through?

Old 10-27-2016, 06:28 AM
  #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 47
Default Which training program to go through?

I am an Army helicopter guy with a bit over 2000 total time. I just got out and will be pursuing a flying career hopefully in the airline industry. So doing a lot of research the last few months I've narrowed my choice to 2 directions. First one is use the GI bill and go to a community college and get all my ratings up to AMEL paid for fully.

The second option is to take advantage of some of the money being offered by the regional and paying for the rest of my ratings.

From a financial standpoint the first option will not cost me any money but will take longer. Some of the accelerated programs I can finish in about 1 year. The second option will cost me about 20-25K but I will be able to finish in about 6 months but I will have a working contract of about 2 years.

Is it worth it to pay out of pocket to be done 6 months earlier and get in the industry sooner? From what I've read it seems like the market for pilots is hot right now and should I rush to strike while the iron is hot? You see the hiring demand change by the end of 2017? From a financial standpoint I have the 20-25K money to pay for the training but unless its benefits outweigh the cost I rather not pay for it out of pocket.

Thanks for the advice
Richmond454 is offline  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:03 PM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,099
Default

Easy decision, use the GI Bill and go to a two year college.

I am an Air Force veteran who retired early through TERA and wanted to start a 2nd career as a pilot. When I was researching how to get my ratings, the post 9/11 GI bill with an Associated in Aeronautics was the best choice. I went this route despite already having a Masters degree.

Having an Associates Degree in Aeronautics did nothing for me except two things:

1. Got all my ratings paid for and a housing allowance to boot.
2. Got me a reduced ATP of 1250.

Since I already had a degree, all my Gen Eds were waived and all I had to do was take the Aeronautics courses and fly. It took me about a year and a half to go from Private pilot (I already had that when I started) to CFI/MEI.

Sure, maybe I could have finished a few month earlier going to one of those "accelerated" programs, but now I have no debt and a reduced ATP. Also I feel I got better training, better education on flying, and made better friends in a college environment. Ohh yeah, the fact I was just north of 40 made no difference. It was still a great experience, and I wasn't even the oldest guy in the Aeronautics program.

You want to know what is really funny? I work with an instructor who did the "accelerated" program at Aeroism and paid his own way. He was supposed to finish under a year, but with weather cancellations, maintenance issues, and instructor availability it took him over a year, almost as long as I did to get all his ratings.
TheWeatherman is offline  
Old 10-28-2016, 04:58 PM
  #3  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Future career pilot
Posts: 5
Default

I have been exploring training options as well. I am also former military with GI Bill benefits.

I was excited when I heard that Post 9/11 would pay for full flight training if you go thru a college program. However, when I began researching I found this to be either quite untrue or rather impractical.

The reason being is that the VA limits the type of training you can do to Part 141 approved schools, caps how many hours you can log in training to the bare minimum (hence most will end up paying out of pocket to complete the practical number of hours required to obtain certification - possibly thousands of dollars), and also limits you to single engine only training.

Of greater concern is that when I began to research schools approved for VA funding, I realized they were more or less cheating the system by over charging for the flight training. Furthermore, of the schools I looked into that offered Yellow Ribbon, I learned that the VA capped the aviation Yellow Ribbon programs at 10k per year. Lastly, because it is a VA program, you pay examiner fees and tests separately, something many schools include in their quote (at least the exams).

So, take for example Liberty College, which advertises you can complete the degree online and choose a partner school for the flight training. As a private institution they max your TA annual funding for tuition, then you use Yellow Ribbon to pay the flight training fees (listed as lab fees). Sounds reasonable in that they tell you that you will not incur out of pocket expenses. However, when I added up the lab fees, it came to approximately $56k. That is for PPL, CSEL, and IR - bare minimum hours, with none of the exams or check ride fees included. That is extremely expensive for that training. When I spoke to some of the partner schools, they all claimed this was their normal fees if I mentioned Liberty. However, if you make separate inquiries, or have them email you course brochures, you will find those same schools often offer the training much cheaper when not associated with Liberty College. One school in Arizona offered a CMEL package that also included Instructor quals for just slightly more when not associated with the Liberty package. When I started pressing that school, they disclosed that the college fees are so high because they are set at the maximum the VA will pay for flight training.

Furthermore, for those that do not take issue with this, with further investigation you discover that because Yellow Ribbon is capped at 10k per year (meaning you get 20k credit towards the flight training per annum), you discover that for bare minimum training to not be out of pocket {tho note you will likely be required to pay extra flight hours regardless}, you would need to complete the training over a period in excess of two academic years.

Mind you, you would still need to pay out of pocket for CMEL and any desired instructor quals.

Also of note is that the school tells you that you can use additional VA funding per aviation program under the Post 9/11 program. In that, the VA will pay something like 21K (I forgot the exact number) per approved flight program. However, you often cannot stack benefits, and if you use this, they debit you 12 months worth of education benefits. Even VA benefits for exams will debit from total allowance; some a full year worth of benefits.

So for me, my goal was to complete the training in a year or less. Had I opted to go thru Liberty, after one year of college and flight school, I would still owe approx $35k for flight training, would have spent approx $5k in exams, check ride fees, and extra flight hours to actually pass the courses. Then if I wanted MEL rating as well, I would have had to fork over another several thousand dollars. And Instructor quals would easily be another 20K or more. In one year of flight training thru the college program, I would still be required to fund an additional $40k plus in flight training (not including Instructor Quals) to get where I want to be. That is more than some of the small aviation clubs would charge for all the flight training required to earn PPL, CMEL, and IR...and you wouldn't be bogged down by college classes.

----------

Lets compare this to the ATP Program, which most will agree is astronomically expensive. With the ATP program, for $65k (or $75K to get an additional 80 hours ME) you get your PPL, CMEL, IR, CFI, CFII, and MEI. And you earn it all in six months. should you want to be more frugal, or don't mind a less than break-neck-speed course, there are countless threads on obtaining training thru local FBOs or flight clubs - for muuuuuuucccccch cheaper. But using ATP for the comparison since it is known to be one of the more expensive options, after a year of college program flight school you can still owe $40'ish thousand to complete training if paying the remainder out of pocket for a quick complete. That means that for $25 more, you get CFI, CFII, and MEI (which consequently is ball park for what many training schools would charge for those certs anyway). If that means you break even with ATP, then one can easily deduce that you wasted a LOT of money in comparison to cheaper options.

The one perk of doing a college program is that you will get a housing allowance while doing a full course load, which depending on where you live will be an extra (ex) $500-$1500 per month, and this of course does help offset costs.

For me, currently in my mid-30s, I don't want to spend a year and a half, or more, in training via a conventional 61,141 school, and certainly don't want to spend 2.5-3 years in a college flight program only to still require additional training. As I have already earned my bachelors, and my MA is half complete, I personally decided against the college program route. I will do ATP. Then if I really want to make myself more marketable, I will use VA benefits for a type rating and ATP/CTP.

Simply, if you want to explore college program options, make sure you really investigate the funding options with whatever college you are looking at to find out how much their tuition fees will eat into your annual benefit, if they are Yellow Ribbon, what they have their flight training lab fees set at, and if you were to use only tuition and yellow ribbon funding, how long the program will take to complete.

Lastly, I know that formal training is expensive; quite a bitter pill to swallow. It is my hope that I will get thru training, log hours and gain experience as a CFI, then get picked up for one of the gigs in AFG making big bucks flying ISR. I am hoping to erase the debt this way, and have already begun networking to help make this happen when the time comes. I only mention this because such options are often more palpable as a former mil guy, wanted to make you aware these gigs are out there, and furthermore you may already have the contacts to get your foot in the door. Minimum hours for a SIC job is as low as 1k TT hours (lots of which will need to be ME and PIC).

With whatever you choose, I wish you and your family the best~

Sorry for any grammatical errors or incoherent thoughts. It is 3:30 am and I was just about to head to bed when I saw this. Wanted to reply before calling it a night.
Crunch is offline  
Old 10-28-2016, 05:29 PM
  #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,099
Default

Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
I have been exploring training options as well. I am also former military with GI Bill benefits.
The reason being is that the VA limits the type of training you can do to Part 141 approved schools, caps how many hours you can log in training to the bare minimum (hence most will end up paying out of pocket to complete the practical number of hours required to obtain certification - possibly thousands of dollars), and also limits you to single engine only training.

Absolutely not true, actually most of what is in your post above is not accurate but I don't want to write a book to respond to a book. Yes, you are restricted by the number of hours provided in the course, but this is often more then enough to complete your rating. For example, for my Instrument and Commercial ratings, both SE and ME, I felt I was ready for my checkrides long before I was finished with the course, but was "forced" to fly more hours to complete the Part 141 course before I could take it. Of course I didn't mind because I would take all the house I could get. I did not know one person who had to pay any significant cost overruns for extra training, especially not to the tune of $35,000. Have no idea how you came up with that number.

Where did you find that the GI Bill only covers SE training? The GI Bill got me my MEL, ME Instrument, ME Commercial, and MEI. As a matter of fact I have 57 hours total time in a ME all paid for by the GI Bill.

As far as Yellow Ribbon, the fees are not limited by that. There has been talk about the VA putting a stop to it due to abuse from he Helicopter programs, but that has not happened as of today. There is also a Bill in Congress that may limit what you can get, but that is still in committee. But as of right now, and has been the case for the last few year, you can get your ratings with the GI Bill if you do it in pursuit of a degree.
TheWeatherman is offline  
Old 10-29-2016, 12:29 AM
  #5  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Future career pilot
Posts: 5
Default

Weatherman, I am interested in your experience. My quotes came from private colleges, as I am currently living overseas and don't have ready access to State colleges. I am sure you can find cheaper tuition at State colleges, but wonder how much less they will be charging for the flight training.

As for VA capping training to single engine, limiting flight hours, and capping Yellow Ribbon for aviation programs, that came directly from both the VA (asked to speak to senior managers handling the education accreditation process as well as managers handling payment authorizations)and from Liberty and a couple of their listed partner flight schools. Of course Liberty offered ME training and Instructor Qualifications, but claimed VA would not pay for their flight training (i.e. lab fees).

I would love for my information to be wrong, as it would open more training options for me. And again, I admit most of my research came from Liberty and partnered flight schools and a couple other private schools.

Sorry for the lengthy original post. Just wanted to be thorough for a fellow serviceman.

I would be happy to share some of my research, e-mails, flight school interviewed etc if anyone PMs.
Crunch is offline  
Old 10-29-2016, 10:51 AM
  #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,099
Default

You talk to 5 different VA representative you get 5 different answers. They don't even have everything straight as they don't get many aviation questions. Fact is as of right now, the gi bill can be used for aviation College programs. Be careful with what school you talk to, they have to be VA approved part 141 in order to qualify. So not only part 141, but VA approved too. Not sure what liberty is, but if you call a school that is not VA approved they are going to bull**** you to try to go to their program and pay out of pocket.

I am just trying to save fellow Veterans from making a mistake and paying 100,000 out of pocket for something they could get compensated for.
TheWeatherman is offline  
Old 10-29-2016, 11:49 PM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,884
Default

Liberty is a VA approved school.

My roommate looked at the options of going to campus or using one of their FTAs and ultimately decided to go for the campus option in order to minimize his out of pocket expenses.
Otterbox is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 03:08 AM
  #8  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Future career pilot
Posts: 5
Default

Liberty is a p141, VA approved school. But they are a rip off.

My msg, although maybe lost in a wall of text, was merely that anyone looking at GI Bill funded college programs should really research the schools they may be interested in to ensure they are getting quality training and minimizing both out of pocket costs and training duration.

The handful of private colleges I researched all maxed TA funding and charged the maximum permitted by the VA for flight training (likely the reason their aviation programs were Yellow Ribbon Program capped). I assume State College options would likely be more reasonable and a better value.
Crunch is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 10:50 AM
  #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,099
Default

OP, any response? People put a lot of work in their replies to your question, it is kind of rude not to respond.
TheWeatherman is offline  
Old 10-31-2016, 06:22 AM
  #10  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 47
Default

Weather and Crunch thanks for the discussion. I've been out of country for a few days and did not have access to internet. So following will be the information that I've discovered since I started researching the past few months. It should pretty much back up what Weatherman has been posting earlier.

Crunh, there's been a lot of changes in the VA system regarding flight training because of a few flight schools that have really abused the GI benefits system. Some helo schools were getting away with 500K in flight training charges for Veterans. A lot of part 141 flight school with associates program use to pay for your PPL license. That's no longer the case. They will only pay for your commercial license and above. But there are schools out there that have been approved to pay for everything including your PPL. ATP programs would be the fastest way to get your ratings and so you can start building hours right away. But the VA caps flight benefits at a little more than $12,500 per year (I don't remember the exact figure). Without exaggeration I've spoken to about 15 different part 141 schools with both associates program (community colleges) and 4 year programs ie Florida Institute, Embry Riddle etc. What I've discovered is each school is in the process of navigating through new VA rules changes and the more nimble ones have been able to adjust their programs so that Veterans will be able to get all their training paid including private pilot license up through MEI. Plus you get the BAH of an E5 while attending school. Like I said earlier I've spoken to about 15 schools but I also emailed about 15 additional schools. Like Weatherman said earlier you get different responses from each school regarding VA benefits. I was able to narrow down a few good associates program after all my research. Feel free to send me a direct message and I can share info on these schools.

Thanks Weather for your response. I think I will go with the associates program and get all my training paid for. I was having second thoughts because a recruiter at an airline informed me that they were willing to give me $23K towards my training and once I finished all my training at their chosen flight school they will offer me a job at their regional airline. In exchange for the 23K in training I need to work for them for 2 years. This program would be accelerated and I know a few army helo guys going through it right now getting their ratings. They fly between 6-8 hours a day to build hours and get out as quickly as possible. The majority of the classroom work is done on your own. Some guys can finish in as little as 4 months but he says it takes about 6 months.

I've just been going back and forth between the two options that's all. Some days I feel like I just want to do the accelerated program and jump in the cockpit right away. This however would cost me around 20-25K. However if I take my time and go through the associates program I know I will learn more.

I know I'm in a good spot with two good options and some people don't really want to hear how I'm having problems picking. But thanks everyone for adding your input. Hopefully this thread can help other Veterans navigate through their GI bill benefits.
Richmond454 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
HuggyU2
Part 91 and Low Time
25
03-27-2013 02:24 PM
MetalGear
Technical
8
01-24-2013 08:08 PM
iflyatnite
Cargo
75
05-03-2010 07:13 AM
Groundhog
Mesa Airlines
77
12-17-2009 07:01 AM
bla bla bla
Regional
163
11-05-2007 09:18 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices