Mid-life Career Change
06-30-2021, 02:24 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,091
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
It's become the curtain climber mantra that one must know someone to get somewhere in aviation. Absolutely untrue. I have never been hired based on internal recommendations, whether long term, temporary, seasonal, contract, or other employment. Not once. As I said, I don't have a high opinion of those who do, or those who buy their jobs.
I've never asked for a recommendation, and don't plan to. I don't drop names to get in. I find those who want to use me as a connection to get a leg up, to be offensive, and it's one sure way to lose my assistance. I'll bend over backward to help someone if they're sincere in their career aspirations, but I'm no fan of those who use others to get somewhere.
Networking is not a life skill. Schmoozing to climb the ladder is slimy...but a common practice.
Do this: be qualified, apply, and get hired on your own merits, instead of who you know. I've spent a lot of my nearly four decades on the job doing work in which one's qualification is established because one is still alive to do the job, and yes, it's a fairly small world in aviation. One's reputation, work history, and record is no mystery.
It's a good practice to leave any given job with an employer's letter of recommendation, simply as evidence that the employer is happy with the job done, but in most cases, I haven't bothered. If the next employer wants to know, he can call the former, and probably will. Records follow, and nothing is done in a vacuum.
Recently a friend moved to a new employer (a desirable one), and called me to discuss his experience. He asked if I'd like him to get me in. I thanked him for the offer and declined. I don't do that. I'm sure there are endless lines of those who are willing to prostitute themselves to do it, who are more than happy to get somewhere because of who they know. I've zero respect for them. I'm sure they don't care. I've far more respect for those who have earned their way, instead of bought it or rubbed shoulders or traded favors to get it.
I've never asked for a recommendation, and don't plan to. I don't drop names to get in. I find those who want to use me as a connection to get a leg up, to be offensive, and it's one sure way to lose my assistance. I'll bend over backward to help someone if they're sincere in their career aspirations, but I'm no fan of those who use others to get somewhere.
Networking is not a life skill. Schmoozing to climb the ladder is slimy...but a common practice.
Do this: be qualified, apply, and get hired on your own merits, instead of who you know. I've spent a lot of my nearly four decades on the job doing work in which one's qualification is established because one is still alive to do the job, and yes, it's a fairly small world in aviation. One's reputation, work history, and record is no mystery.
It's a good practice to leave any given job with an employer's letter of recommendation, simply as evidence that the employer is happy with the job done, but in most cases, I haven't bothered. If the next employer wants to know, he can call the former, and probably will. Records follow, and nothing is done in a vacuum.
Recently a friend moved to a new employer (a desirable one), and called me to discuss his experience. He asked if I'd like him to get me in. I thanked him for the offer and declined. I don't do that. I'm sure there are endless lines of those who are willing to prostitute themselves to do it, who are more than happy to get somewhere because of who they know. I've zero respect for them. I'm sure they don't care. I've far more respect for those who have earned their way, instead of bought it or rubbed shoulders or traded favors to get it.
As someone who has made the stressful transition from the military to a private sector (non-flying) job, networking was incredibly important. It allowed me to learn from others, identify what direction to take, and understand how to present my skills on a piece of paper (resume). Nobody handed me a job because I networked, but I definitely wouldn’t have ended up where I did without networking.
Networking is not the same as getting handed a job that you’re not qualified for just because you know someone.
07-11-2021, 10:01 PM
#93
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
While you could network here, not everyone does, and no, participating here isn't networking. If you're making connections and using those connections to get a job, then you're networking.
You may not understand what networking is, or is not. Researching a company is not networking. Establishing a network of contacts that gets you a line on jobs, gets you recommendations, and gets you in the door, is networking. Posting on a web board is not networking, nor is researching a potential employer.
Research and preparation for application, and interviewing, is an important element of finding work. Networking, while one useful practice for some, is not essential to find, or secure work.
You may not understand what networking is, or is not. Researching a company is not networking. Establishing a network of contacts that gets you a line on jobs, gets you recommendations, and gets you in the door, is networking. Posting on a web board is not networking, nor is researching a potential employer.
Research and preparation for application, and interviewing, is an important element of finding work. Networking, while one useful practice for some, is not essential to find, or secure work.
07-12-2021, 11:19 AM
#95
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
Yes, and no.
The acquaintance may be doing the networking. If you haven't maintained ties or been in touch with that acquaintance, then it's not really networking. Just someone who reached out and offered...but in that case, they're doing the networking.
To make networking work, one must make contacts, maintain them, and use them. One can get on linked-in and make a lot of contacts, but unless one stays in touch, then it doesn't make much difference if they're a contact or not.
If one has made no active effort to become known, to get contact information, maintain the contacts, let others know one is looking, or otherwise put one's self out there using connections to get a job, then it's not really networking. Likewise, cold calling an employer isn't networking. One might put a prospective employer's name at the head of a cover letter and walk it in to shake hands, but that's not networking. It's simply a cold call. Networking greases the wheels in advance.
If the acquaintance has been part of a networking effort in the past, and calls you, knowing you're looking, then that's the result of networking. If instead, the acquaintance is merely someone you've flown with in the past and needed to fill a box and knew you could do the job, that's not really networking. Depending on how one went about securing that information, one may or may not have networked to get the recommendation.
An individual recently upgraded to captain after I recommended him; I didn't solicit his input, nor did he ask me for a recommendation. When I was asked who I thought might be a good candidate upgrade, he was my recommendation, and he was ultimately upgraded. That wasn't networking. I didn't network him, he didn't network me. The fact that someone asked for my opinion wasn't networking, either; it was just part of the selection process; it was recruiting. Recruiting isn't the same as networking, and neither is a recommendation that's unsolicited, made by someone you don't know. Having a reputation isn't networking; it's being qualified. Being reliable, safe, and professional, and gaining a reputation for those traits isn't networking.
Networking involves active effort to make and build, and maintain contacts for the purpose of advancing. It may be reaching out to those at a lower rung and helping them up, or it may be reaching upward, or even laterally for those who may climb the ladder faster, and eventually pull you up. It may be contacting former co-workers, or maintaining those contacts. In any case, networking is active contact with a purpose. Simply meeting someone isn't networking.
A former acquaintance who provides an unsolicited recommendation may or may not be networking; it depends if one has incorporated that acquaintance into a network, and has made the former acquaintance aware of one's desires and intents. It may, or may not be networking, depending on the circumstance.
The acquaintance may be doing the networking. If you haven't maintained ties or been in touch with that acquaintance, then it's not really networking. Just someone who reached out and offered...but in that case, they're doing the networking.
To make networking work, one must make contacts, maintain them, and use them. One can get on linked-in and make a lot of contacts, but unless one stays in touch, then it doesn't make much difference if they're a contact or not.
If one has made no active effort to become known, to get contact information, maintain the contacts, let others know one is looking, or otherwise put one's self out there using connections to get a job, then it's not really networking. Likewise, cold calling an employer isn't networking. One might put a prospective employer's name at the head of a cover letter and walk it in to shake hands, but that's not networking. It's simply a cold call. Networking greases the wheels in advance.
If the acquaintance has been part of a networking effort in the past, and calls you, knowing you're looking, then that's the result of networking. If instead, the acquaintance is merely someone you've flown with in the past and needed to fill a box and knew you could do the job, that's not really networking. Depending on how one went about securing that information, one may or may not have networked to get the recommendation.
An individual recently upgraded to captain after I recommended him; I didn't solicit his input, nor did he ask me for a recommendation. When I was asked who I thought might be a good candidate upgrade, he was my recommendation, and he was ultimately upgraded. That wasn't networking. I didn't network him, he didn't network me. The fact that someone asked for my opinion wasn't networking, either; it was just part of the selection process; it was recruiting. Recruiting isn't the same as networking, and neither is a recommendation that's unsolicited, made by someone you don't know. Having a reputation isn't networking; it's being qualified. Being reliable, safe, and professional, and gaining a reputation for those traits isn't networking.
Networking involves active effort to make and build, and maintain contacts for the purpose of advancing. It may be reaching out to those at a lower rung and helping them up, or it may be reaching upward, or even laterally for those who may climb the ladder faster, and eventually pull you up. It may be contacting former co-workers, or maintaining those contacts. In any case, networking is active contact with a purpose. Simply meeting someone isn't networking.
A former acquaintance who provides an unsolicited recommendation may or may not be networking; it depends if one has incorporated that acquaintance into a network, and has made the former acquaintance aware of one's desires and intents. It may, or may not be networking, depending on the circumstance.
07-13-2021, 07:53 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Best networking story. An 89th Presidential Flight pilot is looking for post-retirement gig. GWB calls one of his potential employers and and recommends him along with, “Pappy won’t be happy, either if you hire him”. That’s networking when two presidents will vouch for you.
09-07-2021, 08:59 PM
#97
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by JayMahon
Hey all. I'm a 38 y/o who has spent the last 20 years managing supply chain and financial companies. I flew a lot back in high school (pre-9/11). Loved it. Sat in a flight simulator at a virtual reality store and the itch came back. Went up in a Piper Cherokee (low wing) and the addiction is strong, also the GPS technology feels like cheating.
I just drew the short straw and my branch is being closed due to lease conflict with the landlord. The financial industry is shrinking as more and more content is being offered online and my company has no open positions for me to fill.
So I had been wrestling with the thought of dropping $$ into my flight training to cert up and really do flying full time. I've got a local flight school that can get me up through MEI and there is a large college nearby with a large aviation program looking for CFIs. I'm thinking this could be a great launch pad to a regional.
I've got no illusions that I'm coming at this a bit late in life. I don't need to fly a wide body as a captain making the big bucks. I'm in fantastic health, so no issues getting a 1st class medical. I know money will be tight, but the hiring environment is so much different than what I remember from the late 90s. CFIs make more than fast food wages. Regionals pay their captains 6 figures. Many regionals can promote you from FO to Captain in just a year or two.
So for those currently training and those who are living the life, what's the weather like? What things might I be missing? You're advice and feedback are welcome.
It's actually been reading over these forums for the past month and doing a metric TON of research in challenging my assumptions that has gotten me to this point. So, thank you all for the information you post on this forum and website. It's been extremely helpful.
I just drew the short straw and my branch is being closed due to lease conflict with the landlord. The financial industry is shrinking as more and more content is being offered online and my company has no open positions for me to fill.
So I had been wrestling with the thought of dropping $$ into my flight training to cert up and really do flying full time. I've got a local flight school that can get me up through MEI and there is a large college nearby with a large aviation program looking for CFIs. I'm thinking this could be a great launch pad to a regional.
I've got no illusions that I'm coming at this a bit late in life. I don't need to fly a wide body as a captain making the big bucks. I'm in fantastic health, so no issues getting a 1st class medical. I know money will be tight, but the hiring environment is so much different than what I remember from the late 90s. CFIs make more than fast food wages. Regionals pay their captains 6 figures. Many regionals can promote you from FO to Captain in just a year or two.
So for those currently training and those who are living the life, what's the weather like? What things might I be missing? You're advice and feedback are welcome.
It's actually been reading over these forums for the past month and doing a metric TON of research in challenging my assumptions that has gotten me to this point. So, thank you all for the information you post on this forum and website. It's been extremely helpful.
09-08-2021, 04:28 PM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by bcagle25
Thanks for starting this thread. I am in a similar situation and debating a similar choice. I will continue to read through this thread before I ask any questions that pertain to my situation.
09-09-2021, 08:47 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: Just a pilot
Posts: 745
Originally Posted by wrxpilot
Look at the post history of that person. To say they are extremely negative is an understatement. I used to work as an engineer and made a career change to aviation when I was 27. My timing was terrible, as I had to deal with the age 65 rule change, Great Recession, etc. But it’s still be fun and now I’m around 40, working for the best airline in the world flying a 767. I get lots of time off, travel the world, and make a fantastic income.
04-08-2022, 06:21 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 144
Might as well keep updating this thread as my story continues.
So, I love the work of training people to fly. I enjoy doing BFRs for pilots. What do I dislike? The pay. Even with FT availability, CFI work is absolutely poverty wages. Ignoring cancellation issues connected to PX, MX and WX, putting in maximum hours would barely have me clearing 30k annually. This low pay barely covers my expenses in driving to/from the airfield, especially on days where a full schedule turns into 0-2 flights. While instructing I made sure to collect enough hours to meet the 135 VFR PIC minimums (25 night XC hours seems to catch a lot of folks off guard).
It took me 3 months of actively pursuing positions that could offer better pay despite my low time (>600 hours) before I found a part 135 job in Alaska. Looking forward to taking that big step into part 135 operations and enjoying decent pay for my skills. I'm still staying on part time as a CFI in the lower 48, as my 135 gig runs a 2 week on/2 week off schedule and I do genuinely enjoy the work of instructing. Since my hours are low, I will likely be in this role for 18+ months. No complaints, as there is a lot of opportunity for growth into larger aircraft with even better pay with this same company.
Here's a brief summary of the timeline to get here: (Split time between acting as a Stay-at-home dad of 7 children and flight training.)
Feb '19: Started making plans, doing research and getting ready to switch into aviation career full time.
May '19: First month of flight instruction, solo.
August '19: PPL complete
Sept '20: Instrument complete (thanks covid, black swan events DO happen)
Jan '21: Commercial complete
June '21: CFI complete, FT job as CFI started
April '22: Start 135 position in Alaska (hope to be in ATP territory by 2024)
So, I love the work of training people to fly. I enjoy doing BFRs for pilots. What do I dislike? The pay. Even with FT availability, CFI work is absolutely poverty wages. Ignoring cancellation issues connected to PX, MX and WX, putting in maximum hours would barely have me clearing 30k annually. This low pay barely covers my expenses in driving to/from the airfield, especially on days where a full schedule turns into 0-2 flights. While instructing I made sure to collect enough hours to meet the 135 VFR PIC minimums (25 night XC hours seems to catch a lot of folks off guard).
It took me 3 months of actively pursuing positions that could offer better pay despite my low time (>600 hours) before I found a part 135 job in Alaska. Looking forward to taking that big step into part 135 operations and enjoying decent pay for my skills. I'm still staying on part time as a CFI in the lower 48, as my 135 gig runs a 2 week on/2 week off schedule and I do genuinely enjoy the work of instructing. Since my hours are low, I will likely be in this role for 18+ months. No complaints, as there is a lot of opportunity for growth into larger aircraft with even better pay with this same company.
Here's a brief summary of the timeline to get here: (Split time between acting as a Stay-at-home dad of 7 children and flight training.)
Feb '19: Started making plans, doing research and getting ready to switch into aviation career full time.
May '19: First month of flight instruction, solo.
August '19: PPL complete
Sept '20: Instrument complete (thanks covid, black swan events DO happen)
Jan '21: Commercial complete
June '21: CFI complete, FT job as CFI started
April '22: Start 135 position in Alaska (hope to be in ATP territory by 2024)
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