Go Back   Airline Pilot Central Forums - Find your next job as a Pilot > >
Flight Schools and Training Ratings, building hours, airmanship, CFI topics
 

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-02-2019, 05:58 AM   #61  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 22,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by acgreen95 View Post
Hey y'all,

Been trying to decide on this career for a while now, and have about 35 hours total time. I love flying but was always hesitant to jump head first into this career

I am turning 24 this week and work in the insurance industry. Looking to make a change. I have a bachelors degree from a top tier university that I received in four years and have enough money to pay for all of my ratings, without having to take a loan.

For those of you veteran pilots, if I were your son would you encourage me to go into this? Is it still a good time to get in, even though I wouldn't likely be at a major for 5-10 years? While I know that decision is ultimately mine, I really don't know too many pilots to ask from. Other than my CFI's, of course, but they haven't flown for the airlines yet. Thanks

- Alex
Yes, do it. I'd guess you'd be at a major in less than ten years. But the hiring is picking up even faster in the near future, if you're going to do it, get on with it.
rickair7777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2019, 10:34 AM   #62  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PosNhold View Post
I am currently sitting at 1400 hours. I am 48 with a wife and two small children. We (as a family) decided to pursue this dream in 2016 when the opportunity presented itself. Here are the things I wish I knew then that I know now.
1) One of the biggest considerations when choosing a flight school should be weather. NOT PAY, or promises made by the management about how much flying you will do. Sounds like a given but believe me seriously research. Where is the Best Weather for Flight Training (In the United States) - JasonBlair.net
We started in PHL area because 1) I was offered 35/hr, and 2) that is where my wife is from and I planned on working as much as possible so we wanted to have a support network. What I learned... 35/hr is zero if your not flying! Wind was a big issue. Last year was one of the worst for weather the school had ever had. Maybe a fluke but, looking at the website I just posted, if I had research more I would have made a different decision. 5 months in I was averaging 45 hours a month. At that rate it would take me about two more years to finish. I ended up going to another state while my family stayed in PA so I could actually GET hours. I leave for 10 days and come home for 4 and repeat. I have been doing this for 11 months. It really takes a toll on you and your family. Had we known we would have moved as a family together to Arizona or Florida.

2) You likely will not even make 35k while flight training. We made about 26k average- no benefits. You are away from the family ALL day (9 am-9 pm is not rare), but if you are hourly you do not get paid for all those hours. Paperwork, prep, planning, meetings... none of that was paid. Figure 1/3 your hours are ground school, the 1/3 are actual flying, 1/3 administrative. SIM and ground school hours do not count when logging time. Oh and don't forget the student cancellations... has happened three times already this week. That's at least 5 hours of prepared flight time that was cancelled.

3) YOU MADE IT. You have offers from three regionals, less than 100 hours to go. YES! End is in sight. NOPE. Will you be moving again to be in base? Will you be taking a job for pay (60k) and best contract where you will move to PIC much more slowly or take the the job that will get you PIC the fastest but pay is closer to 40K? If goal is to get 1000 PIC to get consideration at a major - you have to consider long range goal. Tough considerations when you have a family and have already burned through 80k of savings to get to a regional. Do a budget. Based on my research using info on this site and the hourly rate/bonus (these are just estimates please don't quote me):
Low end Airline 1 Pay scale:
47k yr 1
56k yr 2 (With upgrade at 18 months)
68k yr 3 as PIC
72k yr 4- 1000 PIC time- start applying to majors
76k yr 5- applying to majors

High end Airline 2 Pay scale:
63k yr 1
70k yr 2
75 yr 3 (with upgrade at 24 months)
85k yr 4
90k yr 5- 1000 PIC time- start applying to majors

Also consider if you are moving to a base for QOL: what is the tax rate where you plan to live, and can you hold that base as a Captain, and are there any LLC or Legacy carriers there to avoid having to move again in 5 years?

All in all, this is my dream. My wife is amazing and has supported this all the way. She has advanced degrees but with everything going on with me she can't take on a position with the responsibility she used to have at her former position. This has taken a huge toll both financially and emotionally. My wife works part time now but we are considering moving again so she has to plan that and be the primary parent for two small children and all that goes with that.

Basically you need to understand this is not a year and a half sacrifice. Or at least it is not for us. It will be at least five-seven years from the start of this until we are even close to financial stability (based on my salary alone). From training through year 5 of regional life we will have burned through about 200k of our savings IF my wife does not go back to work full time. (which she will likely as soon as we move to a new base)
Very helpful information. You are a solid two years ahead of me, so I look forward to chasing your tail. You've hit on several points that I feel are important.

The weather as a consideration is some great insight. Luckily, the cfi position I'm looking to step in is salaried with benefits... which is good for income but still doesn't address the flight hours issue.

Budgeting. This is an important life skill regardless of profession. Doing this well has lead to our ability to take this step debt free. We've gotten rid of all debts at this point, so we'll be able to make ends meet at the 35k level, once we hit 60k+ at a regional we'll be back to having extra cash for nice things. We don't need to wait until I'm making the 200k+ bug bucks to be comfortable.

Supportive Wife. This is likely the most important of them all. Can't be understated. Wouldn't be taking this step without her.

=)
JayMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2019, 10:39 AM   #63  
Fly or Die
 
ESQ702's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordhux View Post
how long would it last? It takes about 2-3 years to produce one recruit.
Look at the mandatory retirement numbers under the Legacy/LCC airline profiles on this website to get a sense of how long it will last.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines

Nothing is certain, but those pilots will need to retire unless Congress raises the age from 65.
ESQ702 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2019, 10:51 AM   #64  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 22,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESQ702 View Post
Look at the mandatory retirement numbers under the Legacy/LCC airline profiles on this website to get a sense of how long it will last.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines

Nothing is certain, but those pilots will need to retire unless Congress raises the age from 65.
Worst case, nothing will change much IMO. They won't raise it higher than 67, and even if they went to 70 (or got rid of the age limit), very few folks would work much past 65 anyway.

It needed to be raised from 60 to 65, most pilots are fine at age 60 in this day age (healthier lifestyles). That combined with the BK's, paycuts, and pension cuts ensured that many really NEEDED to keep working...

Today everyone is planning on 65, and the economics are really good for senior folks at the big three. Few people actually WANT to work until they die..
rickair7777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2019, 01:08 PM   #65  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DBono View Post
You guys...! Talking about being mid-life at age 38 or 40. LOL! I'm doing this at 57! I'm a little ahead of you on hours, spent 30 yrs getting near ATP mins. But hey, kids are grown, wife going back to work, FO pay rates reasonable, Class I in hand.......we shall soon find out if I can pass an interview at a regional.
And I thought I was the "old" one at 52 doing this!!!
Cirrus2turbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2019, 01:11 PM   #66  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PosNhold View Post
I am currently sitting at 1400 hours. I am 48 with a wife and two small children. We (as a family) decided to pursue this dream in 2016 when the opportunity presented itself. Here are the things I wish I knew then that I know now.
1) One of the biggest considerations when choosing a flight school should be weather. NOT PAY, or promises made by the management about how much flying you will do. Sounds like a given but believe me seriously research. Where is the Best Weather for Flight Training (In the United States) - JasonBlair.net
We started in PHL area because 1) I was offered 35/hr, and 2) that is where my wife is from and I planned on working as much as possible so we wanted to have a support network. What I learned... 35/hr is zero if your not flying! Wind was a big issue. Last year was one of the worst for weather the school had ever had. Maybe a fluke but, looking at the website I just posted, if I had research more I would have made a different decision. 5 months in I was averaging 45 hours a month. At that rate it would take me about two more years to finish. I ended up going to another state while my family stayed in PA so I could actually GET hours. I leave for 10 days and come home for 4 and repeat. I have been doing this for 11 months. It really takes a toll on you and your family. Had we known we would have moved as a family together to Arizona or Florida.

2) You likely will not even make 35k while flight training. We made about 26k average- no benefits. You are away from the family ALL day (9 am-9 pm is not rare), but if you are hourly you do not get paid for all those hours. Paperwork, prep, planning, meetings... none of that was paid. Figure 1/3 your hours are ground school, the 1/3 are actual flying, 1/3 administrative. SIM and ground school hours do not count when logging time. Oh and don't forget the student cancellations... has happened three times already this week. That's at least 5 hours of prepared flight time that was cancelled.

3) YOU MADE IT. You have offers from three regionals, less than 100 hours to go. YES! End is in sight. NOPE. Will you be moving again to be in base? Will you be taking a job for pay (60k) and best contract where you will move to PIC much more slowly or take the the job that will get you PIC the fastest but pay is closer to 40K? If goal is to get 1000 PIC to get consideration at a major - you have to consider long range goal. Tough considerations when you have a family and have already burned through 80k of savings to get to a regional. Do a budget. Based on my research using info on this site and the hourly rate/bonus (these are just estimates please don't quote me):
Low end Airline 1 Pay scale:
47k yr 1
56k yr 2 (With upgrade at 18 months)
68k yr 3 as PIC
72k yr 4- 1000 PIC time- start applying to majors
76k yr 5- applying to majors

High end Airline 2 Pay scale:
63k yr 1
70k yr 2
75 yr 3 (with upgrade at 24 months)
85k yr 4
90k yr 5- 1000 PIC time- start applying to majors

Also consider if you are moving to a base for QOL: what is the tax rate where you plan to live, and can you hold that base as a Captain, and are there any LLC or Legacy carriers there to avoid having to move again in 5 years?

All in all, this is my dream. My wife is amazing and has supported this all the way. She has advanced degrees but with everything going on with me she can't take on a position with the responsibility she used to have at her former position. This has taken a huge toll both financially and emotionally. My wife works part time now but we are considering moving again so she has to plan that and be the primary parent for two small children and all that goes with that.

Basically you need to understand this is not a year and a half sacrifice. Or at least it is not for us. It will be at least five-seven years from the start of this until we are even close to financial stability (based on my salary alone). From training through year 5 of regional life we will have burned through about 200k of our savings IF my wife does not go back to work full time. (which she will likely as soon as we move to a new base)
Awesome info, and very much I see it EXACTLY as you do. I choose to do my COM in Phoenix, because of WEATHER. Doing my CFI in San Diego because of WEATHER! Was tryign to get my ME in NY over the holidays, literally had to cancel 7 str8 scheduled days due to weather rand cold. Put my ME on hold until I complete my CFI, hoping a flight school will pay for it and CFIME.
Cirrus2turbine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2019, 01:13 PM   #67  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayMahon View Post
Yeah. If it's not going to happen now, then it's just not going to happen.

For those of you already in the air and looking at Corporate America as a 'grass is greener', here's a few things to keep in mind:

There is no 9-5 in management/higher income thresholds. You will leave before the rest of your family is awake and you will get home long after dinner leftovers are cold in the fridge.

Non-union positions are not safer for good employees. My bank is going through a reduction in force event and I just had to tell two of the top performing bankers that their roles are getting liquidated. Performance won't save you from something HR controls. HR controls everything.

Commutes by car are just as bad if not worse than commuting via airport. The Per Diem is bare bones and almost no companies pay the IRS standard for vehicle mileage.

One mistake can kill any career.

Remaining unflexible will result in less opportunity.

You will always have to choose between income potential and quality of life.

Technology is rapidly replacing most high income positions. If you think something is safe because "it's about relationships" and that won't easily be replaced by computers you have your head in the sand like an ostrich. They're all up for grabs and it's closer than most expect.

=) Cheers.
I am in a very similar position you're in. I'm 32, I'm in sales for a new home builder, make between $150k-$180k/ year, and I'm "retiring" next month to full fledge pursue a career in aviation. Real estate is one of the first markets to tank when a major "event" occurs. Not to mention my pay is a direct result on what I sell. Long hours, always at the mercy of others schedules, and no such thing as a true off day. Never away from my phone because a missed call could be a missed sale, and always putting out fires along the process. I have 5 people who I'm close to, who each fly for different carriers, and all 5 have advised to absolute take the leap and do it. The best line I've heard when discussing with them is "You're only working when you're working. You finish your flight, and your work stops. You go home and do whatever you want or need to do.". That alone is worth a $50k pay cut to me. Yet alone the ability to fly anywhere in the world for next to nothing.

Good luck with your career if you decide to make the jump. To me it sounds like he pro's outweigh the cons.
MBFLYIN is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 

 
Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mid Life Career Question Antney Career Questions 37 06-02-2018 05:24 AM
Early career change worth it? aveng Career Questions 11 01-02-2017 10:30 AM
career change need help rsrsrscanada Career Questions 3 12-02-2016 06:40 AM
Career Change: Engineer to Pilot? CC268 Career Questions 15 02-26-2016 07:32 AM
Starting a Pilot Career: The New Realities rickair7777 Flight Schools and Training 12 10-30-2014 04:46 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:55 PM.


vBulletin® v3.9.3.5, Copyright ©2000-2019, MH Sub I, LLC dba vBulletin
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright 2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1