I don't know what the hell that means but the current GF is a trauma nurse.

Ah, some sense. I've read these forums and I see a lot of people looking for the quickest way to an airline. I understand there are monetary concerns, but why not just enjoy the adventure as you're working your way up? Disliking your job is much more depressing than being in debt. Something about driving a regional jet from point A to B to A to B to A just doesn't sit well with me.

Back to the original poster... do what works for you. The reasons there are FBOs and places like ATP is because different stuff works for different people. Personally, I find the more strict and competetive training atmosphere helps my learning curve. It's going to take a lot of research on your behalf. Once you chose, go balls to the wall and don't stop until you're finished. Breaks are flight training killers.

Good luck.

Here's my take. I've done ATP for my MEI and ATP ticket. I've done "local FBO" for everything else except CFI, did that in a University setting. I think that pretty much covers the avenues. I CFI'd for 3+ years at a local FBO, then did accelerated instrument ratings exclusively, and dropped skydivers on the side. I currently drive around the west coast on the left side of a Brazilia.

Regionals like ATP because those guys can pass the training. That's as far as the regional hiring dept. is looking. The hiring dept. is mostly concerned with meeting its hiring goals, and little else.

Real world and real world decisions are completely *completely* different from the structured training environment, and everybody who has been there, knows it.

The beauty of ATP/university training, and Part 121 flying is structure. Lots of eyes looking at every operation. That's great, and is why the safety record is so good.

But what happens when that structure breaks down, or you have dispatchers/maint trying to 'bend' it, or you encounter something you didn't train for? If your whole pilot career has been: here is the paperwork, there is the plane, go fly this profile, you (probably) never had to make a tough decision, or 'push back' against the structure.

If you've done CFI and other single pilot jobs, that don't have the 'structure' around you, you learn to make good decisions, often by having made bad decisions.

Flying on duty hour 13, flight hour 7, with sasquatch in the room above you last night, you got maybe 3-4 hours of sleep, and FO is on their first trip off IOE...and not doing well. Coastal fog is at minimums. Are you safe? You're legal. Dispatch and crew support will say "you're legal". But when will you push back?

The Skydive center owner (with a *serious* anger management problem) wants you to take the last otter load up. Coastal fog is approaching the drop zone. You are *very* hungry for twin turbine PIC time. All the skydivers want to drop. Before you start up, the owner says, "but don't go if you don't think you can drop, I won't pay you for this load if you don't drop them, and I don't want to waste the gas." Do you go? Do you tell them to pound sand?

You look at the fog, and you know it pretty well. It seems to be holding off. You go. At altitude, with the fading sun in your eyes, you have a tough time seeing the drop zone. Is is fogged in, or is that just haze-to-later-become-fog? Experienced drop master says "it looks good. let's go." You know this dropmaster to *always* go, no matter what. All 19 divers are looking at you. Do you give the green light? Or bag it?

Every pilot who has done some *real* PIC flying has a list of stories like this a mile long. That's the key. How much of your flying career have you had to make tough decisions? Going from ATP, buying some ME time with an instructor (also logging PIC), to right seat of that shiny jet, how much decision making happened? When it's time for the left seat, were you paying attention to what was happening on the other side of the plane when you sat right seat? or just said "clear right!, and you're right!"

I can tell you it is a totally different view when *YOU* make the calls.

FA says pax smells of booze. You watched said pax board, and they seemed fine to you, and it's last flight of the night. do you boot 'em?
FO says hydraulic fluid leaking on right side, at an outstation (no mx). You noticed it earlier, and it wasn't too bad. It's day 4 and 2 legs til home. Do you go?
etc, etc.

Which lesson plan from the ATP accelerated training addresses these kinds of things?

They have to be learned in the real world. If you start learning them with 30-70 people behind you, it gets real interesting.

whew, I'm done.

Excellent post. I wish I was that articulate.

Irrelevant!!!!! Name me a Case when an ATP grad has crashed a plane or made bad decisions that resulted in something bad happening.......


Fact: No Matter what School you go to The AIRLINE has their own manuals which governs each CA or FO. They will TEACH you their way... weather you flew Skydivers for the last 4years or you just got out of Flightschool with 240hrs they will teach you the way the Want you to do things..... Again ATP has been around since 1985. IT works!!!!

TwotterDriver is succinct and correct. It is very relevant. Saying experience is "Irrelevant!!!!! " demonstrates you are missing a big point. Nothing to do with ATP grads, it was the value of experience. Hours also don't necessarily provide valuable experience. They only offer the opportunity to gain exposure to real experience. Good luck in gaining yours. I always have learned from others experience and valued their mentoring to me. I have learned numerous lessons from pilots who thought they could do the job regardless. Dead people make worthy lessons in what to avoid, made real by ones own experiences. I have been lucky a thousand times, but learned a few things as all professional pilots should.
Read the NTSB background of this Capt and F/O. A teachable moment. Also, don't put all your faith as you appear to do in the airlines "training" or manuals. Crash of Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701Bombardier CL-600-2B19, N8396AJefferson City, Missouri October 14, 2004

And just how is the kool-aid?

I think both of those guys were Gulfstream International Grads. I asked for a case that an ATP grad has crashed an airplane.... AGAIN you guys have No CLUE how ATP works.... A 20year captain who knows the airplane and the checklist like the back of his hand, knows what to omit "because that never goes wrong" can crash an airplane and kill people. A 2month FO who knows he doesn't know the aircraft well, follows the checklist and catch the mistake and Saves everyone..... GUYS show me statics that prove your point..... Again there's no SUBSTANCE here everything is just OPINIONATED!!!!!

I think both the CA and the FO were GulfStream International Grads, I remember asking for a case of ATP grad killing someone. Ok you have a point about Experience but it has nothing to do with safety or performance. After being a captain for 10years know the checklist like the back of you hand knowing you can leave some things out because it never goes wrong can lead to the crash of the aircraft. 3month FO knows that he doesn't know very much and Needs to follow the Checklist can Prevent that from happening..... LOOK guys 20yr seasoned veterans have crashed Airplanes due to their Messup there's no S

Also fas for the Pinnacle crash I read the entire transcript for that flight, those guys were messing around from the time they left the ground. That have nothing to do with experience, but their maturity level.


Do you recall AAL587? The PIC had 8050 an I'm the pretty sure the FO wasn't too far behind.... Not in the 250hr range....


NSTB Probable CAUSE STATES: The in-flight separation of the vertical stabilizer as a result of the loads beyond ultimate design that were created by the first officer's unnecessary and excessive rudder pedal inputs. Contributing to these rudder pedal inputs were characteristics of the Airbus A300-600 rudder system design and elements of the American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program.


HRS and Experience??? 265people were killed in this Accident

You want statistics? How about insurance rates for pilots with less than 500 hours. Tell me it isn't the highest of all pilots. Still waiting for the answer to why instructing or traffic watch or dropping skydivers is a waste of your valuable time.