Recently FAA has changed 61.159 in regards to accepting SIC hours toward ATP aeronautical experience. It used to be that a CPL who works as a SIC on a aircraft that is certified for more than two pilots can apply all hours flown as SIC towards ATP requirements is no longer valid. The new 61.159 c specifically mentioned only Part 135 with approved SIC program. What that means? Well those pilots who plan on working abroad with their CPL may no longer qualify for ATP as there is nothing in the current regs that address that. Moreover those who are working abroad on a validated FAA license would not be able to apply the hours towards FAA ATP and therefore may not be eligible for update to Captain. This new rule came into effect in August so many may not be aware. Now this is only my interpretation. What do you guys think?

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-61/subpart-G/section-61.159

 

No, 61.51(f) governs logging of SIC time. As always, you may log any SIC time for which you are a crewmember required by the operating rule or TCDS for the aircraft. Only one of the numbers below 61.51(f) is a PDP program. And just to be clear, an approved PDP program is an SIC program, but an approved SIC program may not be a PDP program.

61.159(c) is simply describing the logging of SIC time under PDP to count as aeronautical experience. It is NOT the only aeronautical experience as SIC that counts. There is nothing in that regulation excluding the other legitimate ways to log SIC in 61.51(f). And read 61.51(c) while you are at it.

It's not really a recent change anymore, it's been that way for a few years now, the last change shows Nov. 21, 2024, but I think that was to change some verbiage slightly. 2022 was probably the big change for PDP.

 

Yeah but the 61.159 spells out the requirements for flight experience towards ATP. If a pilot does not meet those exact outlined steps he/she won't be able to qualify for ATP. Thus those who work for international carriers as first officers and are logong SIC time aren't eligible any more. Pilots either log it per 61.159 (c) or d) or they have to use PIC time.

 

Go back and read it more carefully. In sections C & D it doesn't say "commercial pilot may ONLY log flight time obtained in blah blah blah ..." it says "commercial pilots may log..." You can still log legal SIC time towards your ATP, but these paragraphs are also saying you may log time in additional ways (such as a part of a PDP or as a flight engineer time). I believe it was added because pilots were logging SIC time in single pilot airplanes which wasn't legal. You had to log it in a legal way, such as flying in an airplane certified for two pilots or through an OP Spec. What paragraph C is saying is that even though logging SIC time in a single pilot airplane isn't traditionally legal, pilots MAY count the time (i.e. the time is now legal) provided you are flying under an approved SIC PDP. At no point does it say that the provisions in paragraphs C and D are the ONLY methods of logging legal SIC time towards your ATP. The word ONLY doesn't appear. When reading the regs, always be sure not to add words that aren't there. It's very exact legal verbiage and means word for word what it says. Don't add extra meaning that's not there, and the regs will be a lot easier to understand.

 

Simple… not subject to interpretation.

Excerpt of CFR 61.159(c)… last amendment date Nov 21, 2024

 

Additionally I just have to add, if you read further down in paragraph C, after it states all the conditions that must be met it says "when a second pilot is not required under the type certification of the aircraft..." Meaning that if a second pilot IS required, then paragraph C doesn't apply. It's just adding an additional avenue. It's not restricting you to only that avenue.

 

Thanks guys! I appreciate your input. I compared 61.159 with it's previous version where it says this:

“An applicant may credit second-in-command time towards the total time requirements in paragraph (a) of this section, provided the time was obtained in an operation requiring a second pilot flight crewmember by the aircraft’s type certificate or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.”

Obviously this paragraph has been replaced with 61.159 (c) so I got confused.

But in all fairness If you follow verbatim what 61.159 says you can interpret that unless you follow under (c) you can't count SIC time towards ATP min.

 

Even that is perfectly legal if the SIC is required by regulation/operating rule. There's a legal interpretation that IFR with Px with an autopilot is legal to log if the autopilot is not used for the flight, even when the operator has the autopilot in lieu of SIC Ops Spec. I can dig it up if anyone wants to see. There's also the 135.267 rule that requires an SIC for 10hr flight days. One would be advised to write down the circumstances, not just the time, in their logbook, but there are definitely multiple situations where SIC in 135 can be logged, without PDP. PDP just extends it to nearly all situations.

 

It does not say that. There is nowhere where it limits the other legal ways under 61.51(f). Also, 61.51(c) does not contain an exception that prohibits use of SIC time for ATP. The 61.159(c) is again one way to apply SIC time, not the only way.

You are not reading the:
"when a second pilot is not required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted" in 61.159(c).

When a second pilot is required under the TCDS or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted, bam, you are back to being able to legitimately log and apply the SIC time.

 

Correct. In the sentence directly following what you quoted I mentioned needing either a two pilot plane or an OP Spec, but I guess I left that kinda vague. I didn't feel like expanding on the whole autopilot in lieu of an SIC thing. Thanks for providing the additional details for OP.