Are things any better?
11-17-2005, 04:52 AM
#21
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
You Guys
Guys,
60K per year is nothing. The average median house price is 380K in SEA right now. I don't know what it is in SLC but it can't be to far behind. Most of you are thinking in terms of your needs today. By the time you make it to that 63K you will probably have a wife and a few kids in tow. That 63K will disappear like water. 63K is a good chunk if change but it is nothing compared to the investment of 5 years in college and 150K in cash and a few years of earning poverty wages it takes to get there. At 63K/year if you do the math it would take the rest of your career to break even. Sure you could make your wife work or you could ask your parents for help, but most of us spend the time in college and extra investment so we could enjoy a better life than others. In today's world it takes at least 100K to fully power a middle class family of four. Busting your can for 5 years in college then another 5 years building time so you can get to Skywest and another 5 years till you upgrade only then to make less than a 20 year old new hire firefighter is pretty disappointing. It might be hard to see now but in 15 years you will be screaming mad.
SkyHigh
60K per year is nothing. The average median house price is 380K in SEA right now. I don't know what it is in SLC but it can't be to far behind. Most of you are thinking in terms of your needs today. By the time you make it to that 63K you will probably have a wife and a few kids in tow. That 63K will disappear like water. 63K is a good chunk if change but it is nothing compared to the investment of 5 years in college and 150K in cash and a few years of earning poverty wages it takes to get there. At 63K/year if you do the math it would take the rest of your career to break even. Sure you could make your wife work or you could ask your parents for help, but most of us spend the time in college and extra investment so we could enjoy a better life than others. In today's world it takes at least 100K to fully power a middle class family of four. Busting your can for 5 years in college then another 5 years building time so you can get to Skywest and another 5 years till you upgrade only then to make less than a 20 year old new hire firefighter is pretty disappointing. It might be hard to see now but in 15 years you will be screaming mad.
SkyHigh
11-17-2005, 06:54 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Skyhigh, Im not trying to be an a$$ but let me ask you a few questions. Since i know nothing about your personal background please correct any wrong assumptions that may be made.
What is your latte factor? Where does your money go? And i dont care if you make 60 grand or 150 grand. I have plenty of friends that make more than I. its not that hard to do. And a majority of them are in serious debt. 10 grand or more on credit cards and increasing everyday. they only pay the minimum payment. everytime a new "gadget" comes out they just HAVE to have it, NOW! Lease or buy a new car every three years....what a waste! they tend to buy the best clothing and eat out two/three times a week....i wish i could do all that. but you know what? i dont allow myself to live on borrowed money anymore. i used to be one of those guys when i was younger(im 33).
there is an old saying in texas "Big Hat, No Cattle". if you just scratch the surface of most peoples financial lives....they are a mess. the sad part is that our school system doesnt prepare students for the financial world. we only learn about money management from our parents/family. we probaly all can see our parents within ourselves.
point is....most people get a raise and the money is already spent....bigger house, new boat, huge vacation.....
i would encourage any of you who would like a good place to start to learn about money read David Bach's "Automatic Millionare" it will get you thinking.
now dont assume that i live the life of a hermit. my wife,son and i enjoy vacations and a nice night out every month or so. we plan for it. my son plays soccer and basketball and what im most proud of......we all talk about money together. i tell why we are unable to buy X product, but maybe we can save for it. we have bought stocks together now.....he's 7 .....i ask what are some of your favorite toys. after he names the first 100 or so we look up what companies make the games and then we buy stock in that company. he loves to see how much money he "made". plus its fun and hes learning.
i dont want him to grow up the way i did. scared to even talk about money. it was always NO! and we cant afford it.......now i say how CAN we afford it.
remember im just sharing my thoughts about money and salaries. airline pilot, school teacher, garbage man.....it really doesnt matter how much you make, its how much you SPEND.
What is your latte factor? Where does your money go? And i dont care if you make 60 grand or 150 grand. I have plenty of friends that make more than I. its not that hard to do. And a majority of them are in serious debt. 10 grand or more on credit cards and increasing everyday. they only pay the minimum payment. everytime a new "gadget" comes out they just HAVE to have it, NOW! Lease or buy a new car every three years....what a waste! they tend to buy the best clothing and eat out two/three times a week....i wish i could do all that. but you know what? i dont allow myself to live on borrowed money anymore. i used to be one of those guys when i was younger(im 33).
there is an old saying in texas "Big Hat, No Cattle". if you just scratch the surface of most peoples financial lives....they are a mess. the sad part is that our school system doesnt prepare students for the financial world. we only learn about money management from our parents/family. we probaly all can see our parents within ourselves.
point is....most people get a raise and the money is already spent....bigger house, new boat, huge vacation.....
i would encourage any of you who would like a good place to start to learn about money read David Bach's "Automatic Millionare" it will get you thinking.
now dont assume that i live the life of a hermit. my wife,son and i enjoy vacations and a nice night out every month or so. we plan for it. my son plays soccer and basketball and what im most proud of......we all talk about money together. i tell why we are unable to buy X product, but maybe we can save for it. we have bought stocks together now.....he's 7 .....i ask what are some of your favorite toys. after he names the first 100 or so we look up what companies make the games and then we buy stock in that company. he loves to see how much money he "made". plus its fun and hes learning.
i dont want him to grow up the way i did. scared to even talk about money. it was always NO! and we cant afford it.......now i say how CAN we afford it.
remember im just sharing my thoughts about money and salaries. airline pilot, school teacher, garbage man.....it really doesnt matter how much you make, its how much you SPEND.
11-17-2005, 08:04 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
Nice post...You're right about the spending / living on borrowed money...I was lucky to have parents that took the time to educate me on finances. I'm proud to say I've done well for myself on an enlisted , now commissioned salary in the military...When enlisted, I invested my extra money on an education to get that commission so i could have the extra money to put into investments / property...It takes self-control , discipline, and a healthy dose of wanting to improve to make changes for the better in ones life...
Financial knowledge is lacking in the USA...I don't understand why - with all the resources available to individuals...
-LA
Financial knowledge is lacking in the USA...I don't understand why - with all the resources available to individuals...
-LA
11-17-2005, 09:35 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: XJT F/O
Posts: 144
I understand about how the running the debt throught the roof while you try to go to college, but running up 300k in school debt is a little outragous. If you want a career in something you research, plan, and find the best possible means to achieve that goal cheaply. There is not very many jobs out there today that you can walk into paying for school loans, new house, and new family. Most jobs will hire you at 40-50k a year and it will take time to move up. I have been researching airline pilot stuff for three years now and I have been planning for the 20k first year. And what is suprising is you guys talk about how good it use to be. I read a book a few years back titled "How to become an Airline Pilot" written in 1981. The author was explaining about his experience of starting from no time and working up to a pan am FO job in the end. He even stated that his first year at pan am was less then 20k a year. My question to you is how does that differ from now with the first year FO at a major. If I remeber correctly it is around 40k. My ten year plan is to live very modest with my two kids and wife until I get enough time in the airline industry to make better money. In five years I should be able to make more then my last job which took three years to get up to the 45k mark. If you subtract training time it is the same amount of time to move up, but i am doing something i enjoy so that when i come home to my family I am smiling. People who come into an airline "career" that plan on becoming rich in five years have no idea what there getting into. Being young I have talked to many people who have been through different industries and they all, I say all, told me when you change careers expect to take a pay cut. I guess the sum of my long babbling is that you can and will be disappointed in this industry while it takes it first serious down turn if you come into it and plan on making 200k in the first few years.
11-17-2005, 10:04 AM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
I think some people are missing the point.
For some that have already "made it" this career is probably worth holding onto depending on your particular situation. For those that are just beginning training or are struggling to move past the instructing part this career can be a financial and mental nightmare. Achieving this career goes way beyond being broke for a couple of years (the way it used to be). Lets not kid ourselves! It has also gotten much worse since then. I think what Skyhigh is saying is there are much easier ways to make this kind of money and the struggle may no longer be worth the reward. If you live only to fly and do not care other aspects of life than none of this may apply to you.
Since I have left flying behind my income has increased 4x and that is working only part-time as a web designer/consultant. I taught myself to do this in about a year. Compare this to working 55-60 hours a week as an instructor plus commute and time away from home. I now have no commuting costs (I am self-employed and work at home), I can care for our newborn daughter (no daycare expense), and my stress level is about 1/4 what it was flight instructing. I am also my own boss and can make my own schedule. So in my case it was a smart move. That being said, I do miss the actual "flying" part and that is something money and freedom cannot replace.
Lets face one other fact. This career is difficult and stressful even in the best of times. My concern is the direction the industry is headed towards a low-cost model. This is not a temporary change. Of further concern is the rapid pace of advancement in cockpit automation. Soon learning to fly will be a simple matter and this will further add to the intense competition.
Since I have left flying behind my income has increased 4x and that is working only part-time as a web designer/consultant. I taught myself to do this in about a year. Compare this to working 55-60 hours a week as an instructor plus commute and time away from home. I now have no commuting costs (I am self-employed and work at home), I can care for our newborn daughter (no daycare expense), and my stress level is about 1/4 what it was flight instructing. I am also my own boss and can make my own schedule. So in my case it was a smart move. That being said, I do miss the actual "flying" part and that is something money and freedom cannot replace.
Lets face one other fact. This career is difficult and stressful even in the best of times. My concern is the direction the industry is headed towards a low-cost model. This is not a temporary change. Of further concern is the rapid pace of advancement in cockpit automation. Soon learning to fly will be a simple matter and this will further add to the intense competition.
11-17-2005, 01:13 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: B737, Capt.
Posts: 384
Originally Posted by flybye
Lets face one other fact. This career is difficult and stressful even in the best of times. My concern is the direction the industry is headed towards a low-cost model. This is not a temporary change.
This is the easiest job I've ever had. Beats landing on a pitching, heaving carrier deck at night in a rain storm and working 18 hour days on a ship. Beats a high speed pursuit or a building search for an armed suspect. Beats Marine OCS boot camp. Apparently you've not experienced stress. Your point about the low cost model is what? I make more flying a 737 than most heavy drivers....darn the low cost model.
FOTGTD excellent post. I use 10% to the LORD, 20% to Uncle Sam, 20 retirement savings, 50% household budget including short term savings. Used this model all my life. Basically pay God, Pay yourself (investment) and don't spend more than what's left over.
11-17-2005, 01:53 PM
#27
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Finances
Guys,
Most simply said. It is crazy to spend 150K in college and training plus 5 years in college and then 10 more years to finally reach a point that pays only 60K per year. Most people who sacrifise that much earn quite a bit more. If you are comfortible with that then have at it. What I am trying to say is that there are much easier ways to make a lot more with less efforts and that anyone who is smart enough and determined enough to make it in the airlines could have had an easier life and better income if they had focused that power else where.
Just like FlyBye I was forced out a few years ago and have been shocked by how much better we are doing while self-employed.
SkyHigh
Most simply said. It is crazy to spend 150K in college and training plus 5 years in college and then 10 more years to finally reach a point that pays only 60K per year. Most people who sacrifise that much earn quite a bit more. If you are comfortible with that then have at it. What I am trying to say is that there are much easier ways to make a lot more with less efforts and that anyone who is smart enough and determined enough to make it in the airlines could have had an easier life and better income if they had focused that power else where.
Just like FlyBye I was forced out a few years ago and have been shocked by how much better we are doing while self-employed.
SkyHigh
11-17-2005, 02:07 PM
#28
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
SWAcapt,
Respectfully, your background and experiences are uncommon and are not very relevant to this topic. The rest of us have had to self fund our flight training and have had to suffer years of wages less than 10K per year before making it to a regional. Any one of us would love to trade places with you. I would even give the lord 12% if he could secure me a sweet position at SWA. You have had a dream career that has always paid well. We are poor and facing a career without the SWA pay scale and that is the stress that Flybye is referring to. The stress of having a crushing debt load erase your dreams and endanger your financial life. I would you suggest you try walking a mile in these shoes before you criticize.
SkyHigh
Respectfully, your background and experiences are uncommon and are not very relevant to this topic. The rest of us have had to self fund our flight training and have had to suffer years of wages less than 10K per year before making it to a regional. Any one of us would love to trade places with you. I would even give the lord 12% if he could secure me a sweet position at SWA. You have had a dream career that has always paid well. We are poor and facing a career without the SWA pay scale and that is the stress that Flybye is referring to. The stress of having a crushing debt load erase your dreams and endanger your financial life. I would you suggest you try walking a mile in these shoes before you criticize.
SkyHigh
11-17-2005, 04:18 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Respectfully
SWAcapt if I was in your position right now I would still be in flying. That is the whole point. There are the "haves" and "have nots". For those that got in before the burst and managed to build up some seniority in a stable airline congratulations. You are very fortunate. For everyone else that is either on furlough, live in fear of furlough (or having their pay and benefits slashed), or have not even made it yet (like myself) we are not so fortunate. This has given myself and many others pause as to whether this career is still worth the sacrifice. Incidentally, I also served on active duty and also have quite a bit of civilian aerobatic experience so I can handle stress. Not to mention working 3 part-time jobs at once during college to help cover the staggering cost of an aeronautical degree. My congratulations on your SWA job. Now that is a well run airline!
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