career change, opinions wanted
12-17-2007, 10:44 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"For every guy who made it to a job like yours there is at least 1000 who didn't. Are you just trying to make the rest of us feel bad or are you trying to inspire others to throw their lives away on a slim chance.'
It's not as bad as you make it seem, Sky. Somebody needs to tell it like it is.
By the way, there are 3000 pilots at UPS. That x 1000 = 3 million....
Your gross exaggerations, which are your hallmark, make you look silly.
It's not as bad as you make it seem, Sky. Somebody needs to tell it like it is.
By the way, there are 3000 pilots at UPS. That x 1000 = 3 million....
Your gross exaggerations, which are your hallmark, make you look silly.
12-18-2007, 12:42 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 825
In engineering it's called boundary conditions. You can take the same equation of motion, apply different boundary conditions and you'll quickly uncover that the behavior and outcome can be dramatically different for the same equation. So, it's not a matter of spite, as some are trying to suggest is the reason people speak negatively of the profession, but rather a matter of perspective.
It is fundamentally disingenous to suggest your level of happiness with the profession is not largely defined by the "boundary conditions" you had coming into it. For somebody who was simply bored with his previous employment, yet enjoyed the ability to largely subsidize a median living standard, going through the expense and paycut of this profession is just a matter of opportunity cost. This can be rationalized more easily when you have considerable savings, and most certainly with a more lucrative income stream to rely on, in some cases concurrently.
I've had occassions throughout the years where I've confronted acquaintances at the FBO spouting off to the college kids about the great airline career, yet when privately pressed they acknowledge it is not their only, or sometimes even PRIMARY, source of income. Brothers, that's the definition of a hobby. If indeed a passion drives someone to want to do something for free, then it must be true that a happy pilot is by definition one who does not need the (lack of) compensation that activity yields them. You can't have the cake and eat it too in this profession..unless it's your hobby. Conversely, a happy worker could be one who draws happiness from a favorable combination of work conditions/compensation regardless of whether said activity is your passion in life. To have both would perhaps be a dream. But misleading someone into believing that such reality is not molded by other "conditions", because you're afraid of being called a hobby pilot, is just not right in my opinion.
I agree with skyhigh on the importance of perspective. This job, from a career POV, is affected negatively by hobby pilots and late career changers. It doesn't make these individuals less professional on a day to day basis, but it says a lot when they cannot tolerate the slightest suggestion of being hobby pilots, which is why they spin their "happiness" to the "gripping" crowd, and attack the latter with "attitude determines your altitude" type optimisim-at-your-own-demise mantras and dismissal tactics.
It's an outstanding vocation, but not really a very stable career choice to support a family for 30 years, particualrly attempting to do it from zero to hero. Unless things change, I think it will be relegated to the part-time/hobby crowd. I truly think if GA was more affordable, it would be better for the 121 gig, as it would drive less people to want to pursue an airline job. But that's not likely to change, so get ready for your real estate agent to also be your CA on your garden variety regional flight in the future. As de727's, skyhigh's and xjpilot's stories prove, mileage will vary, but to try to normalize them against each other would not be accurate, as they do not share the same conditions, and any attempt to draw conclusions for yourself by cherry picking what parts you like and which you don't will almost guarantee your failure..so beware of the kool aid.
It is fundamentally disingenous to suggest your level of happiness with the profession is not largely defined by the "boundary conditions" you had coming into it. For somebody who was simply bored with his previous employment, yet enjoyed the ability to largely subsidize a median living standard, going through the expense and paycut of this profession is just a matter of opportunity cost. This can be rationalized more easily when you have considerable savings, and most certainly with a more lucrative income stream to rely on, in some cases concurrently.
I've had occassions throughout the years where I've confronted acquaintances at the FBO spouting off to the college kids about the great airline career, yet when privately pressed they acknowledge it is not their only, or sometimes even PRIMARY, source of income. Brothers, that's the definition of a hobby. If indeed a passion drives someone to want to do something for free, then it must be true that a happy pilot is by definition one who does not need the (lack of) compensation that activity yields them. You can't have the cake and eat it too in this profession..unless it's your hobby. Conversely, a happy worker could be one who draws happiness from a favorable combination of work conditions/compensation regardless of whether said activity is your passion in life. To have both would perhaps be a dream. But misleading someone into believing that such reality is not molded by other "conditions", because you're afraid of being called a hobby pilot, is just not right in my opinion.
I agree with skyhigh on the importance of perspective. This job, from a career POV, is affected negatively by hobby pilots and late career changers. It doesn't make these individuals less professional on a day to day basis, but it says a lot when they cannot tolerate the slightest suggestion of being hobby pilots, which is why they spin their "happiness" to the "gripping" crowd, and attack the latter with "attitude determines your altitude" type optimisim-at-your-own-demise mantras and dismissal tactics.
It's an outstanding vocation, but not really a very stable career choice to support a family for 30 years, particualrly attempting to do it from zero to hero. Unless things change, I think it will be relegated to the part-time/hobby crowd. I truly think if GA was more affordable, it would be better for the 121 gig, as it would drive less people to want to pursue an airline job. But that's not likely to change, so get ready for your real estate agent to also be your CA on your garden variety regional flight in the future. As de727's, skyhigh's and xjpilot's stories prove, mileage will vary, but to try to normalize them against each other would not be accurate, as they do not share the same conditions, and any attempt to draw conclusions for yourself by cherry picking what parts you like and which you don't will almost guarantee your failure..so beware of the kool aid.
Last edited by hindsight2020; 12-18-2007 at 01:01 PM.
12-18-2007, 04:21 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: S2c Backseat
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
In engineering it's called boundary conditions. You can take the same equation of motion, apply different boundary conditions and you'll quickly uncover that the behavior and outcome can be dramatically different for the same equation. So, it's not a matter of spite, as some are trying to suggest is the reason people speak negatively of the profession, but rather a matter of perspective.
It is fundamentally disingenous to suggest your level of happiness with the profession is not largely defined by the "boundary conditions" you had coming into it. For somebody who was simply bored with his previous employment, yet enjoyed the ability to largely subsidize a median living standard, going through the expense and paycut of this profession is just a matter of opportunity cost. This can be rationalized more easily when you have considerable savings, and most certainly with a more lucrative income stream to rely on, in some cases concurrently.
I've had occassions throughout the years where I've confronted acquaintances at the FBO spouting off to the college kids about the great airline career, yet when privately pressed they acknowledge it is not their only, or sometimes even PRIMARY, source of income. Brothers, that's the definition of a hobby. If indeed a passion drives someone to want to do something for free, then it must be true that a happy pilot is by definition one who does not need the (lack of) compensation that activity yields them. You can't have the cake and eat it too in this profession..unless it's your hobby. Conversely, a happy worker could be one who draws happiness from a favorable combination of work conditions/compensation regardless of whether said activity is your passion in life. To have both would perhaps be a dream. But misleading someone into believing that such reality is not molded by other "conditions", because you're afraid of being called a hobby pilot, is just not right in my opinion.
I agree with skyhigh on the importance of perspective. This job, from a career POV, is affected negatively by hobby pilots and late career changers. It doesn't make these individuals less professional on a day to day basis, but it says a lot when they cannot tolerate the slightest suggestion of being hobby pilots, which is why they spin their "happiness" to the "gripping" crowd, and attack the latter with "attitude determines your altitude" type optimisim-at-your-own-demise mantras and dismissal tactics.
It's an outstanding vocation, but not really a very stable career choice to support a family for 30 years, particualrly attempting to do it from zero to hero. Unless things change, I think it will be relegated to the part-time/hobby crowd. I truly think if GA was more affordable, it would be better for the 121 gig, as it would drive less people to want to pursue an airline job. But that's not likely to change, so get ready for your real estate agent to also be your CA on your garden variety regional flight in the future. As de727's, skyhigh's and xjpilot's stories prove, mileage will vary, but to try to normalize them against each other would not be accurate, as they do not share the same conditions, and any attempt to draw conclusions for yourself by cherry picking what parts you like and which you don't will almost guarantee your failure..so beware of the kool aid.
It is fundamentally disingenous to suggest your level of happiness with the profession is not largely defined by the "boundary conditions" you had coming into it. For somebody who was simply bored with his previous employment, yet enjoyed the ability to largely subsidize a median living standard, going through the expense and paycut of this profession is just a matter of opportunity cost. This can be rationalized more easily when you have considerable savings, and most certainly with a more lucrative income stream to rely on, in some cases concurrently.
I've had occassions throughout the years where I've confronted acquaintances at the FBO spouting off to the college kids about the great airline career, yet when privately pressed they acknowledge it is not their only, or sometimes even PRIMARY, source of income. Brothers, that's the definition of a hobby. If indeed a passion drives someone to want to do something for free, then it must be true that a happy pilot is by definition one who does not need the (lack of) compensation that activity yields them. You can't have the cake and eat it too in this profession..unless it's your hobby. Conversely, a happy worker could be one who draws happiness from a favorable combination of work conditions/compensation regardless of whether said activity is your passion in life. To have both would perhaps be a dream. But misleading someone into believing that such reality is not molded by other "conditions", because you're afraid of being called a hobby pilot, is just not right in my opinion.
I agree with skyhigh on the importance of perspective. This job, from a career POV, is affected negatively by hobby pilots and late career changers. It doesn't make these individuals less professional on a day to day basis, but it says a lot when they cannot tolerate the slightest suggestion of being hobby pilots, which is why they spin their "happiness" to the "gripping" crowd, and attack the latter with "attitude determines your altitude" type optimisim-at-your-own-demise mantras and dismissal tactics.
It's an outstanding vocation, but not really a very stable career choice to support a family for 30 years, particualrly attempting to do it from zero to hero. Unless things change, I think it will be relegated to the part-time/hobby crowd. I truly think if GA was more affordable, it would be better for the 121 gig, as it would drive less people to want to pursue an airline job. But that's not likely to change, so get ready for your real estate agent to also be your CA on your garden variety regional flight in the future. As de727's, skyhigh's and xjpilot's stories prove, mileage will vary, but to try to normalize them against each other would not be accurate, as they do not share the same conditions, and any attempt to draw conclusions for yourself by cherry picking what parts you like and which you don't will almost guarantee your failure..so beware of the kool aid.
Well said!
01-28-2008, 05:14 PM
#86
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CRJ 700 PIC
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
If you already own a home, have all your college loans paid off and can generally afford to live as you wish then flying must seem quite tolerable. The rest of us have to depend upon it for our total livelihood and for it to provide for our entire future security.
Given that perspective it is a miserable black hole of uncertainty that can not even afford to pay for the cost of the training it took to get there let alone support a family to a standard that is much above what seems like poverty when compared to other similar professions.
This profession is best served as a working hobby.
Skyhigh
Given that perspective it is a miserable black hole of uncertainty that can not even afford to pay for the cost of the training it took to get there let alone support a family to a standard that is much above what seems like poverty when compared to other similar professions.
This profession is best served as a working hobby.
Skyhigh
01-28-2008, 05:22 PM
#87
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CRJ 700 PIC
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
In engineering it's called boundary conditions. You can take the same equation of motion, apply different boundary conditions and you'll quickly uncover that the behavior and outcome can be dramatically different for the same equation. So, it's not a matter of spite, as some are trying to suggest is the reason people speak negatively of the profession, but rather a matter of perspective.
It is fundamentally disingenous to suggest your level of happiness with the profession is not largely defined by the "boundary conditions" you had coming into it. For somebody who was simply bored with his previous employment, yet enjoyed the ability to largely subsidize a median living standard, going through the expense and paycut of this profession is just a matter of opportunity cost. This can be rationalized more easily when you have considerable savings, and most certainly with a more lucrative income stream to rely on, in some cases concurrently.
I've had occassions throughout the years where I've confronted acquaintances at the FBO spouting off to the college kids about the great airline career, yet when privately pressed they acknowledge it is not their only, or sometimes even PRIMARY, source of income. Brothers, that's the definition of a hobby. If indeed a passion drives someone to want to do something for free, then it must be true that a happy pilot is by definition one who does not need the (lack of) compensation that activity yields them. You can't have the cake and eat it too in this profession..unless it's your hobby. Conversely, a happy worker could be one who draws happiness from a favorable combination of work conditions/compensation regardless of whether said activity is your passion in life. To have both would perhaps be a dream. But misleading someone into believing that such reality is not molded by other "conditions", because you're afraid of being called a hobby pilot, is just not right in my opinion.
I agree with skyhigh on the importance of perspective. This job, from a career POV, is affected negatively by hobby pilots and late career changers. It doesn't make these individuals less professional on a day to day basis, but it says a lot when they cannot tolerate the slightest suggestion of being hobby pilots, which is why they spin their "happiness" to the "gripping" crowd, and attack the latter with "attitude determines your altitude" type optimisim-at-your-own-demise mantras and dismissal tactics.
It's an outstanding vocation, but not really a very stable career choice to support a family for 30 years, particualrly attempting to do it from zero to hero. Unless things change, I think it will be relegated to the part-time/hobby crowd. I truly think if GA was more affordable, it would be better for the 121 gig, as it would drive less people to want to pursue an airline job. But that's not likely to change, so get ready for your real estate agent to also be your CA on your garden variety regional flight in the future. As de727's, skyhigh's and xjpilot's stories prove, mileage will vary, but to try to normalize them against each other would not be accurate, as they do not share the same conditions, and any attempt to draw conclusions for yourself by cherry picking what parts you like and which you don't will almost guarantee your failure..so beware of the kool aid.
It is fundamentally disingenous to suggest your level of happiness with the profession is not largely defined by the "boundary conditions" you had coming into it. For somebody who was simply bored with his previous employment, yet enjoyed the ability to largely subsidize a median living standard, going through the expense and paycut of this profession is just a matter of opportunity cost. This can be rationalized more easily when you have considerable savings, and most certainly with a more lucrative income stream to rely on, in some cases concurrently.
I've had occassions throughout the years where I've confronted acquaintances at the FBO spouting off to the college kids about the great airline career, yet when privately pressed they acknowledge it is not their only, or sometimes even PRIMARY, source of income. Brothers, that's the definition of a hobby. If indeed a passion drives someone to want to do something for free, then it must be true that a happy pilot is by definition one who does not need the (lack of) compensation that activity yields them. You can't have the cake and eat it too in this profession..unless it's your hobby. Conversely, a happy worker could be one who draws happiness from a favorable combination of work conditions/compensation regardless of whether said activity is your passion in life. To have both would perhaps be a dream. But misleading someone into believing that such reality is not molded by other "conditions", because you're afraid of being called a hobby pilot, is just not right in my opinion.
I agree with skyhigh on the importance of perspective. This job, from a career POV, is affected negatively by hobby pilots and late career changers. It doesn't make these individuals less professional on a day to day basis, but it says a lot when they cannot tolerate the slightest suggestion of being hobby pilots, which is why they spin their "happiness" to the "gripping" crowd, and attack the latter with "attitude determines your altitude" type optimisim-at-your-own-demise mantras and dismissal tactics.
It's an outstanding vocation, but not really a very stable career choice to support a family for 30 years, particualrly attempting to do it from zero to hero. Unless things change, I think it will be relegated to the part-time/hobby crowd. I truly think if GA was more affordable, it would be better for the 121 gig, as it would drive less people to want to pursue an airline job. But that's not likely to change, so get ready for your real estate agent to also be your CA on your garden variety regional flight in the future. As de727's, skyhigh's and xjpilot's stories prove, mileage will vary, but to try to normalize them against each other would not be accurate, as they do not share the same conditions, and any attempt to draw conclusions for yourself by cherry picking what parts you like and which you don't will almost guarantee your failure..so beware of the kool aid.
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