Track to Success
12-17-2007 | 07:28 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
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There's probably a million threads about this BUT, as I'm too lazy to find them, I'll just post my questions here...
I'm new here and currently exploring options for training to be a pilot. Currently I've been accepted into Embry-Riddle (with a fat scholarship to start with) and will be sending in an app to UND soon. So since I plan on investing a lot of money into this career, I just have a few questions regarding advancement, etc.
1.) How long does it take to go from FO to captain in a regional airline?
2.) How long do pilots fly for the regionals before progressing to a larger national airline?
3.) How long does it usually take pilots to progress from FO to Captain at the larger national airlines (Southwest, etc.)
4.) About how many years can I expect to elapse from the time I start flying for a regional until the time when I am in the left seat of a national airline?
I realize that there are many factors at work here, including but certainly not limited to the differing promotions at different airlines. I'm just looking for an estimate. Should I plan on living off of terrible pay for 5 or 10 years? Will I be stuck in the right seat indefinitely for nearly 10 years or more (with regional or major airlines)?
Also, I've always considered the question of military vs. civilian training. Does that make a big difference anymore? Do pilots that come from the military start out making more at an airline by default? Is civilian training even worth it?
I'm new here and currently exploring options for training to be a pilot. Currently I've been accepted into Embry-Riddle (with a fat scholarship to start with) and will be sending in an app to UND soon. So since I plan on investing a lot of money into this career, I just have a few questions regarding advancement, etc.
1.) How long does it take to go from FO to captain in a regional airline?
2.) How long do pilots fly for the regionals before progressing to a larger national airline?
3.) How long does it usually take pilots to progress from FO to Captain at the larger national airlines (Southwest, etc.)
4.) About how many years can I expect to elapse from the time I start flying for a regional until the time when I am in the left seat of a national airline?
I realize that there are many factors at work here, including but certainly not limited to the differing promotions at different airlines. I'm just looking for an estimate. Should I plan on living off of terrible pay for 5 or 10 years? Will I be stuck in the right seat indefinitely for nearly 10 years or more (with regional or major airlines)?
Also, I've always considered the question of military vs. civilian training. Does that make a big difference anymore? Do pilots that come from the military start out making more at an airline by default? Is civilian training even worth it?
2. 5 months to never (who do you know)
3. 2 years to 15 years (ups and downs)
4. 2 years 5 months to never
12-17-2007 | 07:35 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
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Most of your questions cannot be answered with any degree of accuracy due to the ever changing variables. I will say this; you seem to be taking a business like attitude at considering cost vs reward. That's a good thing. Most jump in without looking. They make the decision on emotion then feel bad when the payoff never arrives.
The next 5 years are going to be rough for several reasons.
- Age 65
- Mergers
- Economy cycle winding down
- Jet fuel
- EPA issues
- ATC issues
- MPL on line before the current 60 year olds turn 65
For the first time in history the airline management teams are speaking with one voice and saying something they have never said before in unison: "Capacity needs to come down".
We will see if they really mean it.
Good luck to you.
The next 5 years are going to be rough for several reasons.
- Age 65
- Mergers
- Economy cycle winding down
- Jet fuel
- EPA issues
- ATC issues
- MPL on line before the current 60 year olds turn 65
For the first time in history the airline management teams are speaking with one voice and saying something they have never said before in unison: "Capacity needs to come down".
We will see if they really mean it.
Good luck to you.
12-17-2007 | 08:04 AM
#13
Swearing at the FMA
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 902
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From: MD-88 FO
12-17-2007 | 08:18 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 32
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I can say I personally went to riddle and even though I made a lot of really good friends and enjoyed my time there I would not recommend it to anyone. The price I am paying now just isn't worth it. Go to a JC finish off at a state college while getting your ratings at an FBO for a quarter the price! Even with the scholarship to riddle unless you have money to blow it just isn't worth it. If there was a down turn in the economy and I lost my job I don't have a degree that will get me anywhere. Read up on this forum there is lots to learn. I wish I had before taking the route I did. I love this job but it is just that, a "JOB".
12-17-2007 | 08:22 AM
#15
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 490
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What about the military? Be willing to serve, and possibly die, for your country. Is it too late to apply for ROTC/OCS/Academies? Then you'll owe nothing and have built in networking. Oh yeah, did I say be willing to serve, and possibly die, for your country?
Oh to be young again with so many options! Good Luck!
12-17-2007 | 09:29 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 276
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From: Jump
Here's an idea what to expect in a professional pilot career. Your success may vary, but it probably won't vary that much.
-Career years 1-2:
Flight instructing/banner towing/traffic watch/tour pilot/etc.
Average salary $12,000 to $22,000/year.
-Career years 3-5
First officer at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator. Upgrade times vary greatly and change constantly.
Average salary= $18,000 to $40,000/year
-Career years 4-7
Captain at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator.
Average salary= $45,000 to $65,000/year
-Career years 8-12
FO at a major, national, or fractional. Average upgrade 3 to 9 years, but may vary greatly.
Average salary= $30,000 to $70,000
-Career years 12-20+ (times also vary greatly)
Captain at a major/national airline, or fractional.
Average salary= $80,000 to "the salary most people think pilots make".
Having solid personal and business connections and a bit of good luck will help make your professional pilot career better than others. Higher education doesn't help that much in this career.
-Career years 1-2:
Flight instructing/banner towing/traffic watch/tour pilot/etc.
Average salary $12,000 to $22,000/year.
-Career years 3-5
First officer at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator. Upgrade times vary greatly and change constantly.
Average salary= $18,000 to $40,000/year
-Career years 4-7
Captain at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator.
Average salary= $45,000 to $65,000/year
-Career years 8-12
FO at a major, national, or fractional. Average upgrade 3 to 9 years, but may vary greatly.
Average salary= $30,000 to $70,000
-Career years 12-20+ (times also vary greatly)
Captain at a major/national airline, or fractional.
Average salary= $80,000 to "the salary most people think pilots make".
Having solid personal and business connections and a bit of good luck will help make your professional pilot career better than others. Higher education doesn't help that much in this career.
12-17-2007 | 09:51 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 193
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capacity is not the problem there is over 80% load factors at most airlines right now. if capacity decreased at some airlines other airlines will fill in the gaps. think airtran, jetblue, southwest, etc.... capacity will continue to grow, it always has, even in the past when certaion airlines said there was tooo much capacity. the airlines that claim too much capacity just need to learn that when costs go up your product needs to go up as well.
If tickets were free what do you think the load factors would be?
For every price point (including free) there are a finite number of passengers that will show up to fly from point A to B.
- Gas is not free.
- Jets are not free.
- Port authorities will not let you use their facilities for free.
- Gate agents, FAs, Mechanics will not work for free.
- Pilots (ok, they will work for free).
Point is, the costs that are not free have grown so large that unlike in the past, as you accurately describe where someone else fills in; Now they (all the airlines) are all saying capacity must come down. It's the only way for yield to go up to cover costs.
12-17-2007 | 02:25 PM
#18
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 61
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Thanks for all the responses.
Here's an idea what to expect in a professional pilot career. Your success may vary, but it probably won't vary that much.
Are these year estimates cumulative or not? For example, under "Career years 1-2 (instructing)" and "Career years 3-5 (FO at a regional)," does that mean that I would be FO-ing at a regional for 3-5 years total, or does that mean that I would be flying for a regional after flying for 3 years and fly as an FO for another 2 years (avg.)?
After checking the airline profiles last night I've decided that Southwest would be my best choice as an airline to aim for. Obviously I'd apply to others but I'm planning on focusing on Southwest. 2 reasons: better pay and job security. The industry may be turbulent and downright ugly but the Big 6 will all die before Southwest ever does. I imagine they will experience some kind of loss but their model is such that it would be very hard to kill them entirely.
Also, what are you all hearing about the upcoming "pilot shortage"? Will it be that significant? I've heard that around 2012 many pilots will have to retire and there will be a great need for replacements. Or will the "Age 65" dilemna postpone or eliminate this shortage? Will regional airlines become more desperate for pilots and raise wages in response?
Here's an idea what to expect in a professional pilot career. Your success may vary, but it probably won't vary that much.
Originally Posted by daytonaflyer
-Career years 1-2:
Flight instructing/banner towing/traffic watch/tour pilot/etc.
Average salary $12,000 to $22,000/year.
-Career years 3-5
First officer at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator. Upgrade times vary greatly and change constantly.
Average salary= $18,000 to $40,000/year
-Career years 4-7
Captain at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator.
Average salary= $45,000 to $65,000/year
-Career years 8-12
FO at a major, national, or fractional. Average upgrade 3 to 9 years, but may vary greatly.
Average salary= $30,000 to $70,000
-Career years 12-20+ (times also vary greatly)
Captain at a major/national airline, or fractional.
Average salary= $80,000 to "the salary most people think pilots make".
Having solid personal and business connections and a bit of good luck will help make your professional pilot career better than others. Higher education doesn't help that much in this career.
Flight instructing/banner towing/traffic watch/tour pilot/etc.
Average salary $12,000 to $22,000/year.
-Career years 3-5
First officer at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator. Upgrade times vary greatly and change constantly.
Average salary= $18,000 to $40,000/year
-Career years 4-7
Captain at a regional airline or small turbine 135 operator.
Average salary= $45,000 to $65,000/year
-Career years 8-12
FO at a major, national, or fractional. Average upgrade 3 to 9 years, but may vary greatly.
Average salary= $30,000 to $70,000
-Career years 12-20+ (times also vary greatly)
Captain at a major/national airline, or fractional.
Average salary= $80,000 to "the salary most people think pilots make".
Having solid personal and business connections and a bit of good luck will help make your professional pilot career better than others. Higher education doesn't help that much in this career.
After checking the airline profiles last night I've decided that Southwest would be my best choice as an airline to aim for. Obviously I'd apply to others but I'm planning on focusing on Southwest. 2 reasons: better pay and job security. The industry may be turbulent and downright ugly but the Big 6 will all die before Southwest ever does. I imagine they will experience some kind of loss but their model is such that it would be very hard to kill them entirely.
Also, what are you all hearing about the upcoming "pilot shortage"? Will it be that significant? I've heard that around 2012 many pilots will have to retire and there will be a great need for replacements. Or will the "Age 65" dilemna postpone or eliminate this shortage? Will regional airlines become more desperate for pilots and raise wages in response?
12-17-2007 | 04:32 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,934
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From: Retired
I think you need to get off the "lazy" kick and look around here. Every question you have asked has been answered here in triplicate.
You want a real-world assessment of what things are now? Don't look at trends until you're there. If you would have told me three years ago that people would be getting hired at 300 total I'd laugh at you. Back then nobody could get a job with less than 1500. It could very easily go back to that.
There is no pilot shortage. If airlines were willing to raise their pay rather than lowering their standards this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly it's easier to pay less and have less experience in the right seat than it is to pay more and have more qualified applicants. The reason there is a shortage is because people don't want the job for the pay and other long-term costs.
You want a real-world assessment of what things are now? Don't look at trends until you're there. If you would have told me three years ago that people would be getting hired at 300 total I'd laugh at you. Back then nobody could get a job with less than 1500. It could very easily go back to that.
There is no pilot shortage. If airlines were willing to raise their pay rather than lowering their standards this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly it's easier to pay less and have less experience in the right seat than it is to pay more and have more qualified applicants. The reason there is a shortage is because people don't want the job for the pay and other long-term costs.
12-17-2007 | 09:34 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by Pilotpip
There is no pilot shortage. If airlines were willing to raise their pay rather than lowering their standards this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly it's easier to pay less and have less experience in the right seat than it is to pay more and have more qualified applicants. The reason there is a shortage is because people don't want the job for the pay and other long-term costs.
I was referring to a pilot shortage in the future. Time will tell as the baby boomer pilots retire and the regional pilots move up to fill their place. Could the regionals have to raise pay even WITH lower standards, due to a deline in applicants for the reasons you mentioned (lower pay+expensive training)?
Anyway I get what you're saying about airlines lowering their standards instead of raising pay. Truly pitiful.
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