Wow. Weren't you talking about judging the position somebody was in? Some people DON'T want to fly for an airline for 40 years, flying the same or similar equipment on the same or similar SID/STAR, getting vectored for the same or similar ILS over and over and over. Some people like GA flying. Who are you to judge somebody who wants to be a career flight instructor? Or a career PA28 flier? Or a career C150 pilot? These are necessary functions, and the fact of the matter is that that route is completely separate from the 121 world, and your judgmental attitude of it shoes that you have absolutely no frame of reference for either. However, to pay to get your training does actually undermine the industry, because the other airlines don't work within a vacuum. As long as they see that there are still people willing to sacrifice almost everything just to get those three stripes, don't think that regional level pay will improve beyond a couple extra cents at different places.

You mentioned SWA, and I don't know whether or not it's actually your goal, but I can guarantee that if you think that your kind of attitude isn't obvious and immediately apparent during the interview process, you're dead wrong. There's not a whole lot of people from Gulfstream and GoJet and the like at SWA, and I can tell you it's not because there's an active campaign against said pilots, but rather that it's because the people who go to airlines like that only look out for themselves. They're the type of people who say "the ends justify the means". The type of people who say "I don't care if I climb up the ladder using my fellow pilots as the rungs". The type of people who will do whatever it takes, at any cost, just to benefit themSELVES and nobody else.

If you think that I sacrificed anything because I went to college or did flight instruction or anything like that, you're dead wrong. I got to a major, quickly at that. I enjoyed flight instruction (when students weren't trying to kill me) because I got to fly and impart the gift of flying on other people. I went to a regional that wasn't top tier, but certainly wasn't a "dog eat dog" regional like the ones I mentioned earlier. Oh, and aside from flying, I would never have fallen in love with my wife if I hadn't gone to college and gotten the experiences that I got there (didn't meet her at college). I would never have my five best friends in the world. I wouldn't have the security knowing that if I were to lose my medical and my company went under (so I couldn't get my loss of medical checks), I could find a good paying, INTERESTING job elsewhere. I wouldn't have gotten the experience, friends, and contacts that I built upon to get my current job. Oh, and where's this $100,000 figure this guy throws around comes from? Purdue's flight training was far from cheap, but even with that I think that even with the four year degree, the 150 or so hours we got in 727 sims, and getting my CFI/II/MEI and all my ratings, MAYBE I spent $100k (plus I had a ton of flying before I got to Purdue). But I have a four year degree and a ton of options to fall back on. $70k gets you a FO job at Gulfstream, but nothing else.

Bottom line, it's easy to get scared into a "MUST ACT NOW" mentality in aviation, but never forget why you're in aviation to begin with: to fly. If you sacrifice the "flying" part just to get to your job, for the love of God, stay away from this industry, because you're going to hate it in about five years. That mentality doesn't only apply to an 18 yearold deciding what to do after highschool, but somebody changing careers at 35. My guess is if you have $70k to throw at a training program (or $70k in collateral!), you have more options than you're letting on than sacrificing an extra (shocker) six months and instructing for a bit and having options afterwards.

EDIT:
BTW, the $70k figure I use is based off of spending about $30k on your primary licenses, which you still have to get. Not only that, but keep in mind that according to their website, the process takes 7 months. 7 months plus 3 months if you do a 90 day fast track program = 10 months, so almost a year. Pretty quick, sure, but when you consider that in that time you'll get 500 hours as opposed to if you do the 90 day fast track and instruct for 7 months (all the while making money, not paying!), you'll realistically get upwards of a total of 800 or 900 (250 hours plus 90 hours a month of instructing). More than enough to get hired at a really good regional, without having to pay to get in the right seat. Of course, you're doing a fast track program, which costs a huge amount of money too, so that'll raise your $70k number. Go to a Mom and Pop, DISCIPLINE yourself, get the flying done quickly, and instruct for a couple months, and I guarantee that you can for a grand total of no more than $35k (I'm really estimating high here, not including what you'll make as an instructor) have six or seven hundred hours in 9 months and you can go to a good regional. Imagine that.

 

Good post,Boilerpilot.T.C.

 

Boilerpilot...first of all, before you go off on a rant again, you need to understand that I am not putting instructers down. Everyone has their way of doing things. I'm just saying that it's not for everyone. Not everyone wants to be a teacher. And all my posts are directed towards people whose ultimate goal is to go the airlines. I'm not talking about people that strictly want to instruct or do something else lilke you mentioned above. If someone wants to make a career out of instructing, then more power to them. I'm not judging that at all so get your facts straight!

And who are you to tell me that I don't have the right intent going into this industry. I've wanted to be a pilot for as long as I could remember and I love flying. Obviously there isnt' a lot of money in the airline industry these days (at least not in the beginning), and yet I still want to do this because I've always wanted to....and also why I want to leave my current job as an engineer because I don't feel that it's what I really want to do as my career. But I will always have that to fall back on if, like you said, I fail a medical or something. So I went to college too!! I never even said that people were sacrificing by going to college...I seriously dont' know where you're getting all this from. Please read my posts carefully.

And I don't have 70K to throw around which is why I'm keeping my current job so that I can pay for my ratings....which is also why it'll take a longer time for me, especially if i decide to get the instructor ratings. By that time, I will not want to spend another 9 months to build 600 - 700 hours of time that will most likely be single engine time. So anyways, if I were to choose the Gulfstream route, I would only be 30K in the hole. So I will not be in as much debt as you think.

And you don't know how the hiring works at SWA. They hire pilots from all airlines. I actually called the HR department at SWA a couple months ago when i was doing my research (because at that time, I was a little skeptical about their FO program too) and the woman I spoke to said that they have hired a lot of pilots from Gulfstream. But you did mention above that there are probably a few people that went to Gulfstream who are now working for SWA....how did they get there if you think that their attitude is imediately apparent at the interview???

 

Trust me, I am intimately familiar with how SWA hiring works. I didn't say there aren't people that get hired from GIA, I said that there aren't many, because of the attitude people from there generally have. I couldn't care less where you come from in terms of if you fly a 747, CRJ, or 1900, but I've seen a lot of types of people from a lot of types of airlines, and while I still judge a person based on the attitude I see them with, it can be hard to push past that. While there are definitely good people at GIA, they are not all that way, and because of the way their operation is set up to "get to the next step", you get a lot of people who have simply paid there money to "get to the $300k heavy job". The trick in any interview process is to find out why a person wants to work for you: not why somebody doesn't want to work for somebody else, not why somebody likes flying in general, but why they want to fly for YOU. I'm not saying it's bad to have goals, quite the contrary, but if you're trying to advance as quickly as possible, at any cost, what's to say that you'll stay somewhere like SWA when in five years after BK contracts expire we DON'T have the best contract in the industry?

The reason I say it's immediately apparent is because it IS. You can usually tell within the first 5 minutes if the person is going to be A: a good fit for the company and B: if they want to work there and C: if they just don't want to work anywhere else. And for the times that you can't tell? Well, you get together with the other people interviewing, and if they got that feeling, then whatever company you're applying to probably will put your hiring on hold for 6 months.

I understand the idea of time constraints and other obligations that people have in their lives, and I believe I've made it clear in other posts of mine that I'm of the belief that, with the exception of a few circumstances, nobody has the right to judge other people too harshly for the decisions they make (i.e. the recent SKW payscale debacle). That being said, GIA, in my opinion, is a bunch of thieves, preying on those who don't know the industry yet. Why would you, an engineer, go to GIA? You could, I kid you not, get your commercial multi, and go to a plethora of airlines where you would fly turbines starting day one, and only have to pay for your initial ratings. You already have shown that you can grasp advanced technical material, essentially the purpose of "Jet Bridge" program. Get your commercial multi, go to TSA. Who cares if you only stay for two months (after training). You save yourself $30k, get that valuable multi turbine crew time, and realistically it's a much quicker route than GIA. If you think that places like TSA aren't hiring with 250ish hours unless you're from a university with an agreement, you're fortunately mistaken. As I said, it's all about just proving that you can get through training. I personally think CFIing is a good thing to do, but I understand those that don't want or don't have time to teach.

Some food for thought. I'm not judging, I merely jumped on what I saw to be judging of another pilot on this board for following their passion.

 

Guys like you make me wish I was on a hiring board!

 

I got a college degree, all of my ratings, and CFI/II/MEI all for under $50K. I was also able to graduate a semester early and instruct my last year and got hired by a regional as soon as I graduated. Now please tell me eightballer how Gulfstream is so good when you can get so much more for so much less at other places?

 

[quote=Cubdriver;306715]This person's idea that going to college is a waste of time and his portrayal of higher education as a means to an end is disturbing. quote]

True, but a 4 year degree certainly isn't what it used to be. College used to be dignified and respected now it is right out of DeTocqueville's majority. We can all name the number 1 party school or NCAA football team but that's all we know.

 

Look Forman, if you read my posts, then you will understand that I have no intention to instruct!!! It's not for everyone. You do it your way, I'll do it my way. I have nothing more to say to you.

 

Good thing you're not on any hiring board then. Maybe you should make that your goal.

 

But if I go to TSA and leave for 2 months, where does that leave me. If my final goal is a major airline, then I need that PIC time. I'm not sure how long it takes to upgrade at TSA, but a lot of the regionals are upgrading their FOs after 4 - 7 years. That's way too long, unless I'm planning on staying with that regional.