ebuhoner

Hello there, I have a stage check tomorrow and there is this doubt that is killing me.. So im posting the GPS Approach plate here....

My question is: When do I have to do the depicted holding at HAXAM? When I look at the Legend it says that it can be Used in Leau of a procedure turn... does this Means that if they clear me for a Full Approach, I must go to HAXAM and hold first? and then proceed to GABEC and land? Or the use of that holding pattern is only mandatory when ATC instruct me to HOLD at HAXAM?? Or you simply use it whenever you want to lose some altitude or you want to wait a little bit for the approach? Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Ewfflyer

To get one thing straight, the depicted hold is a "procedure turn," aka a course reversal item. The only time it is not required to do the PT while performing this approach is if you cross over the FOGSO intersection first, or while recieving vectors-to-final. So the correct answer is, when cleared for this approach from any position, you must perform the PT.

Once you are established on the final course from doing the first stage of the hold entry, you do not have to do a second lap, which is what I believe might be confusing you?

My example to clear it up is let's assume you're in the vicinity of DHP, direct HAXAM. You enter the hold with a tear-drop entry. Once 5nm away you would perform a right-hand turn to intercept the final. Once established on the final, you have performed the required PT for this approach, and can continue straight-in from that point onward.

patton33

right hand turn to intercept final via a tear drop? Wouldn't it be an initial heading of ~300 then left to final?

rickair7777

To clarify:

If you start the approach at FOGSO, no procedure turn is required (or allowed). You need to be low enough to make the step-downs without the PT.

If you start the approach from HAXAM, you will do the normal hold entry for your arrival direction:

If the hold entry would be a direct entry, then you can turn onto final and proceed inbound without really doing a PT.

If the entry would be a teardrop or parallel, you can do the entry, but once aligned inbound to the PT fix you can continue to the FAF without doing a full turn.

If your altitude is such that you need to do a turn or two to get down, you may do that after doing the entry but only when using HAXAM, not when using FOGSO, which is NoPT.

hotelmode

Yeah what those guys said. The real question is when should you NOT do the procedure turn. Like they said, it's depicted as a hold, but really all that needs to be done is the entry to get the "course reversal" requirement. I think there is a list of times you don't have to do it in one of those FAA books but I don't have time to look for it right now...sorry.

Good luck on the stage check!

HSLD

Another point to remember is that these plates can be used in a radar or non-radar environment and could be used in a lost comm. procedure.

Consider how you could use this approach under lost comm as outlined under part 91. You'd have to descend in holding at the IAF until you can safely start the approach.

N0315

This is a question that WILL be asked on your checkride. Remember, when dont you have to do a Procedure turn?

No barb depicted, vectors for straight in, when a holding pattern is there insted of a barb, and when the plate says NO PT. So, at FOGSO, you'll see NO PT. So just go right in. Also remember, you MUST do the hold as depicted. If its a barb, you can do it any way you want, but it must be on the side depicted. A tear drop PT you also MUST do as depicted.

ebuhoner

Thanks for your help guys! I passed the stage check checkride comming soon!

techaviator13

Ok, so I understand that the hold would not be required when you receive vectors to the final approach course, but what exactly establishes when you get vectors? I have a couple thoughts, please let me know if I'm right?
1. Anytime I hear the controller say "turn heading xxx vectors GPS 9R approach", that would constitute vectors for the approach and I would not be required to do the hold.
2. If I am inbound from DHP and the controller says "cleared direct HAXAM expect GPS 9R approach" and then later he says "Cleared GPS 9R approach", I would be required to do the hold since I was never given a vector.

Is this correct?

missingbite

It still depends. If you are being vectored and you are given direct HAXAM cleared for the approach, you may still need to hold. Depending on your direction of travel. You can't just do a 180 degree intercept if you are coming from the direction of DHP. Situational awareness comes into play. On the G1000, it asks you if you want to do the procedure turn or not. If you are coming from the direction of FOGSO there would be no need for the procedure turn when given direct HAXAM cleared for the approach.