SongMan

-Some departure prodecures have name like "Lizard Two", " Nuevo Five". "Pizza Two" and so on. What do these number Two, Five, and so on represent on the title of the departure procedure?

-On a Loss Comm procedure leaving Clearence Limit.
If your Clearence Limit is where the Approch begins, you can leave the clearence Limit at your ETA, right? So if you have ETA of 12:30PM, You leave the Clearence Limit at 12:30. This is how I read the FAR.
However I don't understand the logic behind this. Why not leave your Clearence Limit (IAF) like at 12:10- 12:15 so that you arrive at the airport at 12:30??? Afterall ETA is Estimated Time of Arrival to Airport.

Can some one shed some light on this and tell me the logic behind this rule.

Thank you very much.

atlmsl

Whenever there is a significant change to the procedure such as routing, altitudes, fix names, it is given a new name. So the Lizard Two was previously the Lizard One. The next change will make it the Lizard Three and so on.

Typically your clearance limit is your destination. The logic behind this is they are planning on you being there at that time. They will obviously see your squawk code and know that you are Lost Comm. At the ETA, they should clear the airspace for you to commence the approach of your choice. However they do not know which approach you are planning. Because we have the freedom to choose our approach we should not leave the "clearance limit" (maybe last filed waypoint) early because the controller doesn't know our intentions. At the ETA, the controller should be expecting you to proceed and will plan accordingly. Makes sense in my head atleast.

SongMan

Thanks!

So I guess when we file and give the brifer our time enroute, it's time to Clearence Limit and not to Airport including Approach, right?

Also, Can airport it self ever be Clearence Limit?

N0315

"cleared to Detroit as filed", you're cleared to Detroit, as he said. This is why in planning a flight, you should pick a way-point that's on a segment of an approach. When you file, your ETA is to the airport, including approach. Always how I have done it. When it comes to lost comms, remember these:

highest of Altitdude: M- Min altitude for IFR flight
E - Expected
A- Assigned

Route: by route Assigned
direct to vectored fixed
Expected
filed

So lets say you don't have a CL that is a fix from which an approach begins, and you have lost comms IN IMC. leave the CL at ETA and commence an approach from an approach fix that puts you at the airport. Usually your CL is the airport, so it works well.

If if is, go to the fix and hold until your ETA, and start approach.

Lets say we're holding over a fix and EFC at 1200. we hold over that fix until 1200, then go the route as the above says. That's why there is an EFC, in case of comm failure. So most of the time, the airport IS your clearance limit. Remember CRAFT? Cleared to (that's your CL)

atlmsl

The airport itself is almost ALWAYS the clearance limit. I've never had it where it's not, but it is possible. That's why it's smart to file your last waypoint as an IAF at your destination. That doesn't mean you have to shoot that approach. But it's on your flight plan as an IAF, and if you go lost comm you can go and hold there. But this also doesn't mean keep flying to the airport (which is your clearance limit) and do circles over the field. The term clearance limit just includes any type of clearance ATC may give you since you will ALWAYS have a clearance limit.

the King

If you were last cleared to the airport, then that is your clearance limit.

Personally, I don't like filing an initial approach fix for my limit and I never file an approach in my plan. Since we travel into larger fields, it is a waste of time since the controllers have their own traffic plan and you kinda have to play by their rules.

In addition, some of the approaches I've flown have IAF's that are 10 or more miles from the airport. I'd personally rather fly to the airport and hold that the IAF and hold if I had an emergency situation. Just a personal preference though.

SongMan

So the part on FAR where it talks about Clearence limit being IAF is a rare case? since most you file to the airport and therefore, if you lose you comm before the airport, you would just go shoot your approch regardless of time?

I guess I"m reading my FAR wrong but to me, it makes is sound like I will always reach my Clearence Limit at or before IAF. If it was at IAF, it's very clear. However if CL is before IAF, it's bit confusing since some of you get airport as Clearence Limit.

FAR says upon arrival of Clearence Limit shoot your approach at ETA if it's IAF and it it's not, fly to the IAF then Commence your approach at ETA.

Referencing above, if I was enroute to LAX and the acutal airport is my clearence limit, I can fly to LAX commence my approach regardless of time since It's not a fix?

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

kronan

The Mnemonic I was taught was AVE FAME . Assigned Vectored Expected Filed (highest alt) Assigned Minimum Expected.

And, remember, there is a big difference between what you do if you are VMC or IMC.
If you are VMC, and you see an airport you can land at under VFR rules you are expected to do so even if you are up in Class A airspace or filed under IFR rules.

Clipping below is from AIM 6.4.1

2. VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.

NOTE-
This procedure also applies when two-way radio failure occurs while operating in Class A airspace. The primary objective of this provision in 14 CFR Section 91.185 is to preclude extended IFR operation by these aircraft within the ATC system. Pilots should recognize that operation under these conditions may unnecessarily as well as adversely affect other users of the airspace, since ATC may be required to reroute or delay other users in order to protect the failure aircraft. However, it is not intended that the requirement to "land as soon as practicable" be construed to mean "as soon as possible." Pilots retain the prerogative of exercising their best judgment and are not required to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land only minutes short of their intended destination.



FAA doesn't want you flying w/out radios for any longer than you have to

atlmsl

The problem with flying to the airport and holding (assuming airport is CL) is that the reg does not assume that the plane is GPS equipped. If you are not GPS equipped then you would have to fly to your last filed waypoint or perhaps an IAF. You will basically ALWAYS be cleared to the airport as your CL. If you aren't, this is a no brainer. But again assuming that you are filed to the airport, fly to an IAF and leave at the ETA for the approach of your choice. ATC will clear the airspace assuming you are squawking 7600.

the King

§ 91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(3)(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

Leave your limit (that is not the IAF) at EFC if you have it. If not, leave at a time that will allow you to begin an approach at ETA.