Possible ways to build time
09-23-2008, 08:39 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: -400 FO
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
Wrong. See the other thread I started. A safety pilot can absolutely log PIC.
Techically, 61.51 (b) describes what NEEDS to be logged. It does not say anything about what does not or cannot be logged. So if i go run around in circles with my arms out pretending to be an airplane, I can log that in MY logbook. It just doesn't count for anything meaningful (except entertaining the neighbors).
Techically, 61.51 (b) describes what NEEDS to be logged. It does not say anything about what does not or cannot be logged. So if i go run around in circles with my arms out pretending to be an airplane, I can log that in MY logbook. It just doesn't count for anything meaningful (except entertaining the neighbors).
09-23-2008, 08:46 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
Doesn't matter whether it was quality time or not, its still PIC. I would say renting a 152 and screwing around to build time would be garbage. Every interviewer is going to look at different time differently. 10 hrs of safety pilot time...not a big deal. 260 hrs of safety pilot time because you hung around the FBO offering so you can get a job with a barebones regional....garbage.
And sorry if my last post was confusing. I did not mean at all to imply that safety pilot time was like running around with your arms out. All I was saying was
1) Safety pilot time is PIC. Doesn't matter what we all think about it, it's PIC because the regs say it's PIC!
2) I CAN log anything I want in my logbook. (in response to the other poster saying we CAN log safety pilot time)
And sorry if my last post was confusing. I did not mean at all to imply that safety pilot time was like running around with your arms out. All I was saying was
1) Safety pilot time is PIC. Doesn't matter what we all think about it, it's PIC because the regs say it's PIC!
2) I CAN log anything I want in my logbook. (in response to the other poster saying we CAN log safety pilot time)
09-23-2008, 09:48 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
Originally Posted by wyltk55
Greetings fellow pilots! I’ve been reading the forums for quite some time now, and this is my first post. Thank you for supporting this web site; it has answered countless questions and concerns of mine all the while learning and becoming enmeshed in aviation.
I received my PPL about half a year ago and I’ve since been working on my instrument rating. I have been thinking of ways to bring myself to the 250 hour mark to gain a CPL. I would like to know if you have any advice in getting there. I have considered joining a civil air patrol, purchasing a Cessna 152, gaining time as a safety pilot, and perhaps even purchasing a Challenger ultralight. My question is this: if I have 100-150 hours as a safety pilot, will my commercial checkride examiner allow this? My initial thought is no, but what about in a Challenger ultralight registered as an experimental aircraft? Is this possible? Finishing college and trying to afford the airplane rental bill is becoming quite difficult financially, and I fear it will become impossible. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I received my PPL about half a year ago and I’ve since been working on my instrument rating. I have been thinking of ways to bring myself to the 250 hour mark to gain a CPL. I would like to know if you have any advice in getting there. I have considered joining a civil air patrol, purchasing a Cessna 152, gaining time as a safety pilot, and perhaps even purchasing a Challenger ultralight. My question is this: if I have 100-150 hours as a safety pilot, will my commercial checkride examiner allow this? My initial thought is no, but what about in a Challenger ultralight registered as an experimental aircraft? Is this possible? Finishing college and trying to afford the airplane rental bill is becoming quite difficult financially, and I fear it will become impossible. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I can understand your situation... it's not an easy one... and actually it looks harder than it is.
- Is renting a 152 and building hours garbage? No. Some would venture to say it's better than a part 142 (or 141) school's simulator time.
- Is safety pilot time garbage? No. You are a required crew member and if done correctly you can log the time accordingly. 100-150hrs may be a little overboard, and you should really be logging time under the hood and having the other person be your safety pilot as much as you are for them. Something like 30-40 hrs safety pilot time may be acceptable for an examiner not to give you a hard time, but in all honesty it is time that can be logged towards total time. If you meet the other requirements of the CPL you should be ok. If you are to be a safety pilot, since you are a pilot in command, you should have an intimate knowledge of the systems and aircraft itself... which was mentioned above in another post.
You may be able cut costs by finding a less expensive FBO (perhaps one that does dry rentals) and using some money to pursue more multi-time or aerobatic time (highly suggested for a CFI or Commercial Pilot).
09-23-2008, 11:15 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
I believe that we both meant that an excessive amount of that kind of time is not worth it.
And what's wrong with simulator time? Probably get a whole lot more out of it than GPS direct to get some lunch at a different airport
And what's wrong with simulator time? Probably get a whole lot more out of it than GPS direct to get some lunch at a different airport
09-23-2008, 11:58 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
Doesn't matter whether it was quality time or not, its still PIC. I would say renting a 152 and screwing around to build time would be garbage. Every interviewer is going to look at different time differently. 10 hrs of safety pilot time...not a big deal. 260 hrs of safety pilot time because you hung around the FBO offering so you can get a job with a barebones regional....garbage.
And sorry if my last post was confusing. I did not mean at all to imply that safety pilot time was like running around with your arms out. All I was saying was
1) Safety pilot time is PIC. Doesn't matter what we all think about it, it's PIC because the regs say it's PIC!
2) I CAN log anything I want in my logbook. (in response to the other poster saying we CAN log safety pilot time)
And sorry if my last post was confusing. I did not mean at all to imply that safety pilot time was like running around with your arms out. All I was saying was
1) Safety pilot time is PIC. Doesn't matter what we all think about it, it's PIC because the regs say it's PIC!
2) I CAN log anything I want in my logbook. (in response to the other poster saying we CAN log safety pilot time)
If I log PIC as a safety pilot on a cross country, would this count towards the 50 PIC cross country hours needed for the instrument? Would it be looked down upon?
I suppose if I were the sole manipulator of the controls and had a safety pilot with me on a cross country, that flight would count towards both reference to only instruments and PIC cross country. Do you think an examiner would have a problem with this?
Last edited by wyltk55; 09-23-2008 at 01:06 PM.
09-23-2008, 02:06 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
ya know, i dont have the regs in front of me, but i believe it says something concerning who is "conducting" the flight. I know what's legal and what's smart are two different things so i must ask
are you really so proficient at cross countries that you don't need the time required?
are you really so proficient at cross countries that you don't need the time required?
09-23-2008, 04:38 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
I believe that we both meant that an excessive amount of that kind of time is not worth it.
And what's wrong with simulator time? Probably get a whole lot more out of it than GPS direct to get some lunch at a different airport
And what's wrong with simulator time? Probably get a whole lot more out of it than GPS direct to get some lunch at a different airport
I said "some would venture to say....", personally I believe simulators have their place... but they too can have an excessive amount of hours. Also, you don't have to do GPS direct to get some lunch at a different airport... you can do approaches, holdings, talk to ATC etc... and come across unusual situations that may help you understand things better... and then get lunch. Time in a 152 can be of great value.. it's just what you make of it.
09-23-2008, 05:15 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
i agree!
To the original poster...please get a set of FAR's and look up 61.65. You and your instructor need to figure out what the most efficient way is for you to get all the hours required. There's not really any guessing here, everything is spelled out. After a quick read over that reg, it looks like if you used a safety pilot for you to gain simulated instrument/cross country time, it would work. Its been a while since I was an instructor, but I believe the STL FSDO had a problem with simulated with safety pilot counting towards total instrument time. Either that or it was written in our 141 syllabus that way. I think that you are right to want to do this as cost and time efficiently as possible, but there's some prep work that is going to go into figuring out what you as a student need. Get with your instructor and
1) Read the regs
2) Create a plan
3) Run that plan past a DPE or take it over to the FSDO
Also remember that you need to do the 250 cross country, which will count for PIC.
To the original poster...please get a set of FAR's and look up 61.65. You and your instructor need to figure out what the most efficient way is for you to get all the hours required. There's not really any guessing here, everything is spelled out. After a quick read over that reg, it looks like if you used a safety pilot for you to gain simulated instrument/cross country time, it would work. Its been a while since I was an instructor, but I believe the STL FSDO had a problem with simulated with safety pilot counting towards total instrument time. Either that or it was written in our 141 syllabus that way. I think that you are right to want to do this as cost and time efficiently as possible, but there's some prep work that is going to go into figuring out what you as a student need. Get with your instructor and
1) Read the regs
2) Create a plan
3) Run that plan past a DPE or take it over to the FSDO
Also remember that you need to do the 250 cross country, which will count for PIC.
09-23-2008, 05:24 PM
#19
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
i agree!
To the original poster...please get a set of FAR's and look up 61.65. You and your instructor need to figure out what the most efficient way is for you to get all the hours required. There's not really any guessing here, everything is spelled out. After a quick read over that reg, it looks like if you used a safety pilot for you to gain simulated instrument/cross country time, it would work. Its been a while since I was an instructor, but I believe the STL FSDO had a problem with simulated with safety pilot counting towards total instrument time. Either that or it was written in our 141 syllabus that way. I think that you are right to want to do this as cost and time efficiently as possible, but there's some prep work that is going to go into figuring out what you as a student need. Get with your instructor and
1) Read the regs
2) Create a plan
3) Run that plan past a DPE or take it over to the FSDO
Also remember that you need to do the 250 cross country, which will count for PIC.
To the original poster...please get a set of FAR's and look up 61.65. You and your instructor need to figure out what the most efficient way is for you to get all the hours required. There's not really any guessing here, everything is spelled out. After a quick read over that reg, it looks like if you used a safety pilot for you to gain simulated instrument/cross country time, it would work. Its been a while since I was an instructor, but I believe the STL FSDO had a problem with simulated with safety pilot counting towards total instrument time. Either that or it was written in our 141 syllabus that way. I think that you are right to want to do this as cost and time efficiently as possible, but there's some prep work that is going to go into figuring out what you as a student need. Get with your instructor and
1) Read the regs
2) Create a plan
3) Run that plan past a DPE or take it over to the FSDO
Also remember that you need to do the 250 cross country, which will count for PIC.
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