lily

Hello,
I am close to getting my private license but am in the process of switching schools AGAIN. I've been burned twice at other schools and am already in $30k worth of debt, so I want to be sure that my next choice is a good one. Please help me decide if my time and money would be better spent at American Flyers or ATP. I know you get a lot of multi time with ATP, but American Flyers supposedly has a better set of teaching standards. PLEASE HELP!!!!

THANK YOU!

Squawk_5543

You're not leaving yourself good options. I wouldn't pay one cent to either of those "schools", they are both such a rip off. How are you already 30k in debt and don't even have your private? Is that strictly from your degree? Please do a little more research and find a local mom & pop FBO. You will save so much money. Don't settle for some big banner highly advertised flight academy.

lily

Thank you for your response! The first school I went to closed down while I was on a business trip to Europe and took my funding and log book. I thought the school I'm currently with was more of a mom and pop school, but my teacher has been gone A LOT and I've ended up spending a lot already. I completed all my hours in July of 2007, but have not been able to get on a consistent track again with him for the past year. Do you know of any schools in Southern California that you think are worth the time and money? I'm close to Long Beach, Santa Ana, or anywhere in that approximate area. I'm just so scared of wasting more money. More loan money nonetheless.

Wildflyin

Depending on your situation, ATP isn't a rip off. It just might not be the right choice for some people. People tend to rip on them quick because of the price tag up front. That being said, I DO recommend getting your private at an FBO and enjoy flying for a while if you can. The big schools like ATP won't give you any solo time outside of that required for your private. I went to ATP for the rest of my ratings but I took my time getting my private first. It did however take me 4 years to get that private ticket thanks to having to work a job and flying whenever I had the chance. Also cost me a heck of a lot more money than if I was able to buckle down. You sound like you're having trouble keeping a schedule, albeit though the flight schools fault or your own schedule. Get your private, then weigh your options carefully. Weight the pros and cons of both, and NOT JUST THE FINANCIAL AMOUNT.

ex. Some of the Pro's of ATP : You get your ratings done quicker (you still have to pass the same FAA test), all you do is focus on flying. There will always be a plane for you to fly. The planes are well maintained. There will always be an instructor there to help you out. You can use their flight training devices whenever you feel like it and you don't pay anymore to do it. The amount of multi time you receive. You will fly often, usually daily. The price you locked in at is the price you will pay, regardless of fuel changes (This is a shaky pro, seeing as I'm pretty sure they won't take a loss either way).

Some of the Cons: The instructors are young and do not have years of experience. They will teach you to fly and pass your test, but there is so much more to flying. You can only fly where they tell you to fly. There is a strict accelerated timeline to follow. If you fall behind, you will be kicked out. (they will refund money based on your stage, but sometimes the amount will not seem quite fair). Most of the study is self-study, no structured ground classes (Part 61). Need to have a loan approved up front.

Pro's of an FBO : You may find an instructor who is vastly experienced and is instructing just to teach (rather than build time). You will learn things about flying that are outside of the PTS standards. You can pay as you go. You can work around your own schedule. You can solo the planes a lot more often and go where YOU want to go. You can get more structured ground training and have a more personable experience. You MAY pay less money if you are able to focus on your flying (and if the flight school doesn't close overnight and steal your logbook.)

Con's : Depending on where you are, you may be flying planes that are much much older than you with maintenance problems. The FBO may have a very small fleet and rent out the same airplanes you train in leaving you without planes from time to time. You will probably only fly 2-3 times per week for an hour at a time. Your one instructor may have several students making him unavailable. The prices will fluctuate as fuel fluctuates


The choice is yours, this list was based off of my experience. I went to ATP for the rest of my ratings because as I left my one career (military) it was better for me to take a loan and focus just on flying rather than try to get another job and piece-meal my ratings together every spare chance I got.

I hope this helps you get a better picture rather than someone just saying that a school is a rip-off.

~Wild

michael95u

Are you limiting yourself to Southern California or would you go any where if the school was right for you?

Michael

yacko

I have personally attended and received ratings from both ATP and AF. ATP had a better organized program and was much quicker to get ratings but my instructor was absolutely awful. At AF on the other hand, my instructor was awesome but the program and school itself was horrible and burned me. Both are extremely expensive and I have to agree with squawk, and to look for more options. If I absolutely had to do it all over again and only had those two choices I would go with ATP and their career airline program strictly for the value of the multi time and the layout of the program and I would request a new instructor if I had the same one I had before. Good Luck

RXS676

If you are in the Southern California area, you really should check out Sunrise Aviation at SNA. The instructor who does all the multiengine training is a retired Continental 777 Captain.

Any flight school will be happy to train with you full-time, if that's what you want to do. Especially if you want to do multi training. You don't have to go to ATP to train full-time. And their "fixed" price isn't really. You get an allotment of hours, and if you go over, you have to pay on an hourly basis, at hugely inflated prices. It says that specifically in the agreement you sign on your first day.

Wildflyin

It is fixed the amount of hours you signed the contract for. The fixed part is more for fuel prices. At an FBO the price WILL fluctuate with fuel prices. Yes, the FBO still may wind up cheaper. Of course if you use more hours you will pay more. That goes at ANY flight school. They are running businesses not charities.

proskuneho

I used to work for Flyers. Even though I have a lot of affection for the good times and lessons learned, I left because I felt that there were so many things that needed to change and the CEO was a barrier to positive change. I continue to have a lot of respect for the President and the owners; I have zero respect for the CEO. I honestly believe that AF used to be an outstanding flight school, and many aspects at most of their schools remain excellent. For example, my instrument training was fantastic.
I have a passion for excellence. Many of the current managers and chief pilots that are still there do too. Some really amazing people still work there. Unfortunately, there are just a couple of bad apples that are either lazy, or are more interested in short term gain than long term excellence. That's probably why some people like Yacko have stories about getting burned by AF.
The upside? If the individual school actually trains and manages the student the way the program is designed, then the students receive excellent, expedient, deep training that is worth every penny. I agree Flyers is very expensive - but the program is awesome if implemented properly.
At most other flight schools, training is an unmanaged free-for-all. The instructors often do what is in their interest - at the expense of the student.

Whatever school you choose, make sure that you know what you are supposed to do for each certificate and rating that you work on. Know the requirements and the standards. Stay objective, stay teachable, and keep seeking advice here on this forum and from any aviation professionals that have earned your respect. Then you have a better shot of not getting milked for flight hours and tho$and$ of dollar$!!

Good luck.

lily

Thank you all for being nice enough to reply to my question.

I am kind of limited to the Southern California area since I have to continue working full time while I go to school and have a really good job that works with my schedule.

AF does offer an internship program. Would that be worth my time? The only bad thing is that it might take up to 1 year to get my instrument and commercial and another year to get my CFI and CFII rating, while being worked to the bone for the school.

Although, a year doesn't sound bad since I've been working on getting my private the past year and a half and still don't have it.

Thank you!