Teaching our students right and wrong...
02-16-2009 | 05:48 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Those guys sitting next to you with wet ink on their commercials will end up paying the price and not only in monetary terms either.
There are no short cuts, no matter what the glossy flight training ads in the flying magazines say.
Like ryan1234 said, the loans will make their life hell for a while too.
There are no short cuts, no matter what the glossy flight training ads in the flying magazines say.
Like ryan1234 said, the loans will make their life hell for a while too.
02-16-2009 | 07:24 PM
#22
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: CR7 Capt.
Loans, yes. But the fact that they will never be completely trusted will probably get old too. A copilot without an ATP, or in lieu of that, a single-pilot, multiengine 135 letter has every thing to prove to me. I try to treat them kindly but I will never really trust them.
02-23-2009 | 04:25 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: 747 FO
There is a big difference between paying for your own education and certificates and buying a job. Your degree and/or certificates are yours to take with you, However, airline specific training is not. i.e. You buy a job at ABC Airlines and they go under. If XYZ Airlines is also PFT, ABC's doesn't help you one bit. Anybody that pays an employer as a condition of employment is not a professional at all. They're just warming the seat and taking a job away from real professionals.
02-23-2009 | 07:23 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
There is a big difference between paying for your own education and certificates and buying a job. Your degree and/or certificates are yours to take with you, However, airline specific training is not. i.e. You buy a job at ABC Airlines and they go under. If XYZ Airlines is also PFT, ABC's doesn't help you one bit. Anybody that pays an employer as a condition of employment is not a professional at all. They're just warming the seat and taking a job away from real professionals.
If you buy a job at ABC Airlines, when they go under you can certainly take your experience with you.
And if you buy a type rating, for example, it is "yours to take with you" just like your education, etc. but you are probably against that too.
02-23-2009 | 08:13 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
From: Fero's
I think we all pay for the minimum training required. You have to have a commercial license to get paid to fly. As an FO you are not required to posses an ATP. I got mine when I made Captain. I have a bunch of type ratings. All were aquired, at no cost to me, when the company that I worked for trained me to fill the seat.
Never cheapen the profession, that's what my instructor said to me...
Never cheapen the profession, that's what my instructor said to me...
02-24-2009 | 05:51 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,163
Likes: 0
From: F/O- G-V/550
Great post FloridaCFI. If we are going to bring our profesion back to where it once was (salary wise), that would be the starting point....
Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get anywhere. Guys will continue to pay for a job and/or fly for free. They gotta get that turbine time, its "my ticket to the majors, forget my fellow pilots"... Companies feed off that, that's why they make people buy type ratings, fill in the right seat for no compensation, and the regionals pay their F/Os practically nothing, why would they? there literally thousands of Flight Instructors willing to do it for less.
I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get anywhere. Guys will continue to pay for a job and/or fly for free. They gotta get that turbine time, its "my ticket to the majors, forget my fellow pilots"... Companies feed off that, that's why they make people buy type ratings, fill in the right seat for no compensation, and the regionals pay their F/Os practically nothing, why would they? there literally thousands of Flight Instructors willing to do it for less.
I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.
02-26-2009 | 08:28 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
From: Left
Just a general statement,
I think that a CFI should be providing effective instruction for the applicable rating. Not teaching the "ins and outs" of an industry that quite frankly, we lack the experience to be talking about.
If you feel that it's your "duty" then I might reccommend providing your insight off the clock. Not when the student is paying for ground. FWIW
I think that a CFI should be providing effective instruction for the applicable rating. Not teaching the "ins and outs" of an industry that quite frankly, we lack the experience to be talking about.
If you feel that it's your "duty" then I might reccommend providing your insight off the clock. Not when the student is paying for ground. FWIW
Last edited by ZBowFlyz; 02-27-2009 at 06:50 AM.
05-08-2009 | 11:25 AM
#28
Line Holder
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 456
Likes: 1
From: Left Seat
So I've been realizing something lately, and I guess it's time to vent a bit.
We have no end to other pilots willing to buy type ratings, pay for training, pay for jobs, etc and step on the backs of those of us who are actually building our time in a legit way. But are they completely to blame? Common sense would say yes... but then again, aren't we (CFI's) their primary source of learning about aviation? Maybe we're partially to blame. Isn't it our job to teach them about not only the skills of flying, but also the aviation industry?
Over the past few months, I've had conversations with a number of my students about other people who buy their way into jobs, pay for type ratings in exchange for work, etc. I've had more than a few students tell me "Sure... I'd do that if I had the money". After explaining to them why it's a bad thing for the industry (and ultimately themselves), all of them have told me something like "Wow... I've never thought of it that way before."
If every single pilot out there started refusing to pay for jobs, training, and type ratings, then companies who need pilots would have to start stepping up to the plate.
I know that a lot of the way I fly I picked up on from my primary instructor way back when I did my PPL. If one CFI can convince one pilot that paying for training is a bad idea, then we have made a positive impact.
The moral of the story is that we have a huge influence on the way our students will act when it's time for them to become professionals. So take a minute to include some basics about the industry in your lesson plans. We're supposed to be mentoring our students about the right and wrong way to fly... let's also mentor them about the right and wrong way to behave.
If they don't learn it from us, who else is going to teach them?
We have no end to other pilots willing to buy type ratings, pay for training, pay for jobs, etc and step on the backs of those of us who are actually building our time in a legit way. But are they completely to blame? Common sense would say yes... but then again, aren't we (CFI's) their primary source of learning about aviation? Maybe we're partially to blame. Isn't it our job to teach them about not only the skills of flying, but also the aviation industry?
Over the past few months, I've had conversations with a number of my students about other people who buy their way into jobs, pay for type ratings in exchange for work, etc. I've had more than a few students tell me "Sure... I'd do that if I had the money". After explaining to them why it's a bad thing for the industry (and ultimately themselves), all of them have told me something like "Wow... I've never thought of it that way before."
If every single pilot out there started refusing to pay for jobs, training, and type ratings, then companies who need pilots would have to start stepping up to the plate.
I know that a lot of the way I fly I picked up on from my primary instructor way back when I did my PPL. If one CFI can convince one pilot that paying for training is a bad idea, then we have made a positive impact.
The moral of the story is that we have a huge influence on the way our students will act when it's time for them to become professionals. So take a minute to include some basics about the industry in your lesson plans. We're supposed to be mentoring our students about the right and wrong way to fly... let's also mentor them about the right and wrong way to behave.
If they don't learn it from us, who else is going to teach them?
still teaching CFII?? thinking of getting my Single comercial... I already have my multi-commercial... so I can be a CFI like you... but it will not be for teaching for money, I will do it for free! because I have the passion for it! Free is always good! can you afford to teach for free???
05-09-2009 | 08:59 AM
#29
A Second Past V1
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
From: Assumed
if you can, great.
but cfi gigs are how most pilots get their hours up for commercial operations and ultimately another flying job. doing so puts in a lot of time...2 years or maybe more. might as well get a paycheck if you are putting in the time and effort.
passion and feeling good doesnt pay rent.
but cfi gigs are how most pilots get their hours up for commercial operations and ultimately another flying job. doing so puts in a lot of time...2 years or maybe more. might as well get a paycheck if you are putting in the time and effort.
passion and feeling good doesnt pay rent.
05-09-2009 | 10:29 AM
#30
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
From: 135 FO
still teaching CFII?? thinking of getting my Single comercial... I already have my multi-commercial... so I can be a CFI like you... but it will not be for teaching for money, I will do it for free! because I have the passion for it! Free is always good! can you afford to teach for free???
