Flight Training too risky of investment.
05-04-2009, 06:50 AM
#11
A Second Past V1
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Assumed
Posts: 743
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
Not really that unreasonable. Take an aircraft that cost $120/hr, and an instructor rate of $45/hr, and with the avg of 65hrs to attain a PPL, it's easily over $10,000.
Call me chicken little but based on the lack of new flight trainees looking for a career in aviation, the furloughs from airlines resulting in people leaving the industry for good, military pilots on contracts for over a decade, the overall downturn of the economy as the resulting factor, and the new age 65 retirement rules, I see a commercial pilot shortage in 2 years.
05-04-2009, 06:51 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by HectorD
.......I mean, they have to pay the bills.
Which is pricisely my point.
jonnyjetprop said it best; however, let me just add that when the supply (i.e. flight students) dwindles for whatever reason, you lower your prices to generate the demand for the product (the desire to train).
atp
05-04-2009, 11:02 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: PA-44 Left Seat :P
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
Not really that unreasonable. Take an aircraft that cost $120/hr, and an instructor rate of $45/hr, and with the avg of 65hrs to attain a PPL, it's easily over $10,000.
This rate is what we charged for our services and our aircraft. The instruction rate was justified, you were getting 1 of 2 highly experienced CFI's, and the plane was more of an IFR trainer, with dual 430's, AP, airconditioning, etc...
You could save $2000 very quickly by changing aircraft to something less desireable, and obviously another $500-ish on instructors if you get a lower rate.
This rate is what we charged for our services and our aircraft. The instruction rate was justified, you were getting 1 of 2 highly experienced CFI's, and the plane was more of an IFR trainer, with dual 430's, AP, airconditioning, etc...
You could save $2000 very quickly by changing aircraft to something less desireable, and obviously another $500-ish on instructors if you get a lower rate.
05-04-2009, 11:04 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: PA-44 Left Seat :P
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by Outlaw2097
Yup. And thats just a PPL.
Call me chicken little but based on the lack of new flight trainees looking for a career in aviation, the furloughs from airlines resulting in people leaving the industry for good, military pilots on contracts for over a decade, the overall downturn of the economy as the resulting factor, and the new age 65 retirement rules, I see a commercial pilot shortage in 2 years.
Call me chicken little but based on the lack of new flight trainees looking for a career in aviation, the furloughs from airlines resulting in people leaving the industry for good, military pilots on contracts for over a decade, the overall downturn of the economy as the resulting factor, and the new age 65 retirement rules, I see a commercial pilot shortage in 2 years.
05-04-2009, 07:05 PM
#15
A Second Past V1
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Assumed
Posts: 743
Originally Posted by HectorD
I hope you are right. I will be in the job market in 4.
Some were shorted by age 65. People before that were affected by 9/11.
All you can do is cross your fingers and hope it works out.
05-04-2009, 09:35 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 585
Flight training an investment?
An investment in what?
One can just as easily spent the money on beer, jet skis, a boat, horse, fancy car, latest and greatest TV and other gadgets, shows, and so on.
Or one could have put the same amount of money into the stock market. I'm down over 65%. Coulda put that money into flying and that would have been several hundred more hours aloft instead of ground-pounding.
Or the local bank where fees and other stuff would assure one is out a significant chunk, too.
Or the mattress, where mold and rats could have destroyed it.
Or a second or even a different career, and be one of the millions out of work, except having had a heck of a lot less fun at the other job.
I don't know what these new rules of money are. If you pay down your debt, the bank rewards you by reducing your credit line. If you keep a revolving debt, you get charged. If you invest, you lose, period. If you save, you lose. If you spend, you get the benefit of whatever you purchased, for a short period of time. If you recycle, you get charged. If you reuse, you get charged. If you earn a dollar, the gov't takes 40-60% of it. If you win a dollar, even more gets taken. There seems to be no reason or rationality to it anymore.
The only thing that seems to make sense is to spend it now, before someone else does it for you.
An investment in what?
One can just as easily spent the money on beer, jet skis, a boat, horse, fancy car, latest and greatest TV and other gadgets, shows, and so on.
Or one could have put the same amount of money into the stock market. I'm down over 65%. Coulda put that money into flying and that would have been several hundred more hours aloft instead of ground-pounding.
Or the local bank where fees and other stuff would assure one is out a significant chunk, too.
Or the mattress, where mold and rats could have destroyed it.
Or a second or even a different career, and be one of the millions out of work, except having had a heck of a lot less fun at the other job.
I don't know what these new rules of money are. If you pay down your debt, the bank rewards you by reducing your credit line. If you keep a revolving debt, you get charged. If you invest, you lose, period. If you save, you lose. If you spend, you get the benefit of whatever you purchased, for a short period of time. If you recycle, you get charged. If you reuse, you get charged. If you earn a dollar, the gov't takes 40-60% of it. If you win a dollar, even more gets taken. There seems to be no reason or rationality to it anymore.
The only thing that seems to make sense is to spend it now, before someone else does it for you.
05-05-2009, 10:04 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: PA-31/left, LJ31/right
Posts: 350
Originally Posted by TPROP4ever
Ok, yes the economy is bad, and there are a lot of us on furlough, but this industry is cyclical, and when things pick back up, we will be in another shortage of pilots I think, which again will allow for quick movement within the industry. And unfortunatly then there will be a severe lack of CFI's because they will be all back in their RJ cockpits, and a rush of students wanting to ride the next hiring boom. Things will always cycle from one end to the other. For everyone of us griping about a lack of flying right now, ill bet we will be griping about having a day off when things pick up. I foresee around 2011, when the cycle of the age 65 rule hits again, but only time will tell...
SSSHHHHHHHH! Your not supposed to say things like that.
05-05-2009, 09:19 PM
#18
Big Poppa
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 613
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
Not really that unreasonable. Take an aircraft that cost $120/hr, and an instructor rate of $45/hr, and with the avg of 65hrs to attain a PPL, it's easily over $10,000.
This rate is what we charged for our services and our aircraft. The instruction rate was justified, you were getting 1 of 2 highly experienced CFI's, and the plane was more of an IFR trainer, with dual 430's, AP, airconditioning, etc...
You could save $2000 very quickly by changing aircraft to something less desireable, and obviously another $500-ish on instructors if you get a lower rate.
This rate is what we charged for our services and our aircraft. The instruction rate was justified, you were getting 1 of 2 highly experienced CFI's, and the plane was more of an IFR trainer, with dual 430's, AP, airconditioning, etc...
You could save $2000 very quickly by changing aircraft to something less desireable, and obviously another $500-ish on instructors if you get a lower rate.
05-06-2009, 04:34 AM
#19
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by LeoSV
I don't think it's reasonable for a PPL. you don't need an IFR trainer, or AC for that matter. I used an old 172 for $95/hour, had a $35 instructor, and finished in 53 hours, and I'm not super pilot. That was just in 2006, during the price increase. Now my flight school's cheapest plane is $105, and cheapest instructor is $38, and it's still not the cheapest school around. Either way, you come out still paying way less than $10k. I think if you pay over $8k for a private, either you or your instructor is doing something wrong, or you just like training in G1000 planes which skyrockets the cost.
A lot of it depends on geographic area, the aircraft, and the wants/needs of the customers. I have 12 sign-off's, with an avg of 65hrs for PPL's. I had one guy that I signed off with 186hrs for his PPL. I had the other extreme with one at 45hrs. When you're teaching folks that want to fly just to fly, not on the path to becoming a commercial pilot, things are hugely different. I had some folks that could only come once a week, or less, and they obviously took the 65+hrs, the ones that hit 3 times a week(minus my one exception), they hit it out around 50-55.
I guess my whole thought is never put a specific price on what it "should" cost, because everyone learns differently, time constraints, etc.. I absolutely never 'milked' any of my students, and am still keeping up with many of them today after being away 4 years and moving states. This is just my experience.
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