Notices
Flight Schools and Training Ratings, building hours, airmanship, CFI topics

Should I stay, or should I go?

Old 09-01-2009, 08:00 PM
  #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
A320fan's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: C172 Right
Posts: 64
Default Should I stay, or should I go?

Hey all,

(I apologize in advance for the length of this post. It's lengthy because I felt it was the best way to show just how many factors are influencing this, so bear with me if you can)

I'm starting my second year at a very well-known and respected flight school. (I've chosen not to say the name because I don't want any "my school is better than yours" fights going on here.) I got my PPL last February, closing in on 90 hours in the air, and am very glad I got my basic training here. Unfortunately, I've been having a few problems though, and something came to mind a few days ago that I would like your opinions on.

Like most part 141 schools, this place trains us in a fast-paced, rigorous learning environment. We as students are expected to go from no time to a PPL in one semester, full instrument traing in one semester, and so on. The first semester, I didn't finish my private training until two months into the second semester, failing a 141 stage check and the final FAA ride getting there. The next course, which was a time-builder and an intro to basic instrument flying, should have been done at the end of last semester. I am still trying to finish it up now, since I had no choice but to head home for the summer and work (money is kind of an object for me, and I tend to run out of it.) I am basically totally behind the flight training "template" that has been set for the 4 years we are here, and have very little hope of catching back up again. Even if I kept working at trying to get caught up, the stress of time really messes with my performance, especially on stage checks/checkrides.

Also, the school is located in a small, remote town over 300 miles from the nearest major city. Ever since I came to this school, I have felt out of place. I'm kinda different than everyone here, and just cannot relate to anyone because of that, and haven't made any real friends. To put it simple, I'm not happy here. I always felt more comfortable in a bigger city with more culture, more of an original scene, and less mainstream "let's get drunk and get laid" college lifestyle. Had enough of my whining yet??

Based on all I've read on these fourms, it sounds like the best option to go about pursuing that airline career is to go to school for a degree in anything BUT aviation, and get the ratings at the local FBO. It sounds like all airlines are looking for is how many hours do you have and if you have a college degree, regardless of what its for.

With that in mind, I thought of this: I've always had a natural nack for writing (hell, I profread this thing twice before posting!), and had in mind ditching this school and the aviation degree program I'm enrolled in right now, and get a degree in journalism from the university in Milwaukee (long story, but that's where I'd go if I left here). I'd get my ratings at the FBO, build time while I'm working, and go for that airline job with that degree to fall back on in case of a furlough.

But on the opposite side, I've wanted that seat in the cockpit since I was a kid, and wanted it BADLY!!! I'm willing to do absolutely anything to make that happen too. Yeah, go ahead and laugh....if I was one of you guys, I'd probably laugh at me too for saying something like that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. I couldn't live with myself if I gave that dream up. And so far, after all that I've had to deal with in the last year, I'm still 100% driven to do it.

Here's what I would like to know from you guys.

1. If I left this "prestegious flight school" and went for the journalism degree and FBO flight training, what would actually be at stake? Do I run the risk of not having the ability to get hired because I don't have a degree in aviation? All I ever hear is "our school's job placememt rate is 98%" and "you can go wherever you want and be the best at it if you graduate from our program," and do not want to loose that. I want this badly enough to endure three more years of this if that's what its going to take.

2. This school hires students as instructors, and that usually takes only a year to build good regional time at $23/hour. If I got trained at an FBO, how hard is it to find ways to build regional time? If it's near impossible, it doesn't seem worth it to leave.

3. I know that FBO's are cheaper than part 141 schools (especially with the $150,000 I'm going to end up taking out in loans here), but hear some talk that they are getting more expensive. If I'm going to end up paying nearly as much for FBO training, once again, it doesn's seem worth it to leave.

Hope you got through that whole thing in one piece, and your advice on this whole thing would mean the world to me. Thanks a lot for your help.

Colin
A320fan is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 08:03 PM
  #2  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
A320fan's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: C172 Right
Posts: 64
Default

Sorry, wrong fourm! Belongs in the flight schools fourm.
A320fan is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 08:16 PM
  #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
USMCFLYR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,835
Default

Colin -

You will get some excellent responses here at APC for some real experts with a lot of experience; but I'll start it off.

You do not need to graduate from a certain "well known and respected flight school" in order to get a job.

You should not spend $150,000 to get your ratings. You can get the same thing from a local FBO.

You should enjoy your college experience. I would go as far to say that if you are not enjoying your experience at your present school, then it is only going to get tougher as time goes on (the flying, the studying, the social life, etc...) You will not be as good of a pilot as you're capable of if you are miserable the whole time learning.

Getting a degree in something else other than Aviation seems to be the general concensus on the forum - and as I said - lots of smart/experienced people have advocated the same.

USMCFLYR
USMCFLYR is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 08:36 PM
  #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
FL450's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Thrill Seat
Posts: 467
Default

Originally Posted by A320fan View Post
Hey all,

(I apologize in advance for the length of this post. It's lengthy because I felt it was the best way to show just how many factors are influencing this, so bear with me if you can)

I'm starting my second year at a very well-known and respected flight school. (I've chosen not to say the name because I don't want any "my school is better than yours" fights going on here.) I got my PPL last February, closing in on 90 hours in the air, and am very glad I got my basic training here. Unfortunately, I've been having a few problems though, and something came to mind a few days ago that I would like your opinions on.

Like most part 141 schools, this place trains us in a fast-paced, rigorous learning environment. We as students are expected to go from no time to a PPL in one semester, full instrument traing in one semester, and so on. The first semester, I didn't finish my private training until two months into the second semester, failing a 141 stage check and the final FAA ride getting there. The next course, which was a time-builder and an intro to basic instrument flying, should have been done at the end of last semester. I am still trying to finish it up now, since I had no choice but to head home for the summer and work (money is kind of an object for me, and I tend to run out of it.) I am basically totally behind the flight training "template" that has been set for the 4 years we are here, and have very little hope of catching back up again. Even if I kept working at trying to get caught up, the stress of time really messes with my performance, especially on stage checks/checkrides.

Also, the school is located in a small, remote town over 300 miles from the nearest major city. Ever since I came to this school, I have felt out of place. I'm kinda different than everyone here, and just cannot relate to anyone because of that, and haven't made any real friends. To put it simple, I'm not happy here. I always felt more comfortable in a bigger city with more culture, more of an original scene, and less mainstream "let's get drunk and get laid" college lifestyle. Had enough of my whining yet??

Based on all I've read on these fourms, it sounds like the best option to go about pursuing that airline career is to go to school for a degree in anything BUT aviation, and get the ratings at the local FBO. It sounds like all airlines are looking for is how many hours do you have and if you have a college degree, regardless of what its for.

With that in mind, I thought of this: I've always had a natural nack for writing (hell, I profread this thing twice before posting!), and had in mind ditching this school and the aviation degree program I'm enrolled in right now, and get a degree in journalism from the university in Milwaukee (long story, but that's where I'd go if I left here). I'd get my ratings at the FBO, build time while I'm working, and go for that airline job with that degree to fall back on in case of a furlough.

But on the opposite side, I've wanted that seat in the cockpit since I was a kid, and wanted it BADLY!!! I'm willing to do absolutely anything to make that happen too. Yeah, go ahead and laugh....if I was one of you guys, I'd probably laugh at me too for saying something like that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. I couldn't live with myself if I gave that dream up. And so far, after all that I've had to deal with in the last year, I'm still 100% driven to do it.

Here's what I would like to know from you guys.

1. If I left this "prestegious flight school" and went for the journalism degree and FBO flight training, what would actually be at stake? Do I run the risk of not having the ability to get hired because I don't have a degree in aviation? All I ever hear is "our school's job placememt rate is 98%" and "you can go wherever you want and be the best at it if you graduate from our program," and do not want to loose that. I want this badly enough to endure three more years of this if that's what its going to take.

2. This school hires students as instructors, and that usually takes only a year to build good regional time at $23/hour. If I got trained at an FBO, how hard is it to find ways to build regional time? If it's near impossible, it doesn't seem worth it to leave.

3. I know that FBO's are cheaper than part 141 schools (especially with the $150,000 I'm going to end up taking out in loans here), but hear some talk that they are getting more expensive. If I'm going to end up paying nearly as much for FBO training, once again, it doesn's seem worth it to leave.

Hope you got through that whole thing in one piece, and your advice on this whole thing would mean the world to me. Thanks a lot for your help.

Colin
So you don't want to get laid...

Just kidding

On a serious note, I think your main concern should be are your credits going to transfer for the classes for which you have paid for. Its one thing to transfer flight training however some universities don't accept all credits from other (even well known) accredited universities. As for the aviation degree thing, you don't need a degree in aviation to fly just make sure your have A DEGREE before you accept a flying job.

None of us on APF are perfect we have all struggled at some point with our ratings however we are where we are because we have never given up! Your two years away from age 65 at least and whether you notice it or not the employment door is slowly creaking open again. There will be jobs for you when you graduate with your journalist degree and finish your ratings. I have to agree with USMC 150,000 peice of paper that says aviation is not going to get you any closer to Delta or Northwest however a degree in journalism will get you in the door.

As far as building time I hate to suggest this because I am totally against it but instruct for the local FBO or apply for your former aviation school as an instructor. I've never been a believer in using instructing as a time building tool because your doing a disservice to your student however your numero uno. A lot of mapping places will hire you as long as you have 500TT so that is always an option as well as sky diving schools.

I'm tired so my answeres from here on forward probably will not be of any assistance however feel free to IM me and ask any other questions you have. Best of luck to you and welcom to APF.

Disclaimer: I'm not a journalist so you will find spelling and grammer errors...
FL450 is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 09:49 PM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 154
Default

I never understood why the marketing departments of all the aviation universities and academies use that 98% job placement score. I personally think its just that...a marketing tool to lure in unknowing students just to say that if you go with that school you're pretty much guaranteed a job, which you won't. Choosing another school to go to is up to you. I left one school to go to another so called "good aviation school," just to find out it was much more expensive and definitely not the kind of environment I wanted, so I actually returned to my old school. It was the best choice I've made. It saved me a boat load of money and I came back to an awesome flight school. I would definitely not get a degree in anything aviation. If you decide to pursue one, go for business marketing, management, education, medical field...anything besides aviation. But even at that, why do you need a bachelors degree...if you get laid off in this industry and you're the entrepreneur type, become a electrician, plumber, roofer, painter, carpenter, whatever you like doing, these jobs require some training but you can make the same dough doing these as you could with a bachelors and you won't have to pay for that degree. If I was you, I would truly consider going with the local fbo and a local college in the state where you're from. You will greatly appreciate it later. You'll hear some people on here boast about how there so called "great aviation school" is so much better than the local fbo. This is completely untrue. Those who say things like that are the ones that paid 80k+ for their flight training and they feel the need to justify spending that much money by putting down the fbo. Anyway the choice is yours, but I would recommend going down the path that will make you the happiest in the long run.
boeingt7 is offline  
Old 09-01-2009, 10:05 PM
  #6  
C21H30O2
 
GrUpGrDn's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: L/R or workin' the panels!
Posts: 356
Default

Good read. Fan, do yourself a favor and listen to the advice above. Also, keep track with what Congress is doing as we speak, meaning, they are drafting a bill to "mandate" to FAA regarding the hiring of airline pilots. ATP is going to be required, which as you know, means, 1500 hours. On another note, local FBO's are less expensive, you are able to live at home, saving more money. Local universities are normally less expensive. Good luck.
GrUpGrDn is offline  
Old 09-02-2009, 07:39 AM
  #7  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,102
Default

Originally Posted by A320fan View Post
1. If I left this "prestegious flight school" and went for the journalism degree and FBO flight training, what would actually be at stake? Do I run the risk of not having the ability to get hired because I don't have a degree in aviation? All I ever hear is "our school's job placememt rate is 98%" and "you can go wherever you want and be the best at it if you graduate from our program," and do not want to loose that. I want this badly enough to endure three more years of this if that's what its going to take.
Aviation employers do not care where you got your ratings. they care only about your flight experience (ie multi-engine turbine PIC). There are no "prestigious flight schools" with the possible exception of the US service academies. Certain "prestigious flight schools" are actually the laughing stock of the aviation industry, the butt of jokes and bad stereotypes.

The better jobs (even at the regional level) will require a 4-year degree, but it does not matter what your major is. However...I would not do an indulgent major like history, philosophy, etc. Aviation is your indulgence, you need to get a degree which will make you somewhat employable if you get furloughed, have medical problems, etc. Aviation degrees are not very useful in the real world...and they will not help you in aviation either for that matter.

Don't pay too much attention to anything flight schools tell you. You can easily tell when they are lying...their lips are moving.


Originally Posted by A320fan View Post
2. This school hires students as instructors, and that usually takes only a year to build good regional time at $23/hour. If I got trained at an FBO, how hard is it to find ways to build regional time? If it's near impossible, it doesn't seem worth it to leave.
You should have no problem building time as a CFI...but that is also economy dependent. Right now things are tough but that's because there is less recreational GA flying and many pilots looking for work. But that is not likely to be the case in three years.


Originally Posted by A320fan View Post
3. I know that FBO's are cheaper than part 141 schools (especially with the $150,000 I'm going to end up taking out in loans here), but hear some talk that they are getting more expensive. If I'm going to end up paying nearly as much for FBO training, once again, it doesn's seem worth it to leave.
I would usually throw out a number in the $35-45K range for all of your ratings at FBO's or small schools. The price of fuel may have impacted that some, but there is no way you need to spend $100K or even close to it.

You will still need a 4-year degree though, but that can be had on the cheap at a state school.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 09-02-2009, 09:22 AM
  #8  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
A320fan's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: C172 Right
Posts: 64
Default

Thank you so much for all of your input, and I'm a lot more at ease with this decision. If I do decide to go ahead with this plan, here's how its going to go down:

I transfer to the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee (in-state tuition..YEAH!), apply to their journalism program, finish with a B.A. in Journalism, and train at the FBO out of MKE (I think its a Signature Flight Service, if anyone knows the quality of instruction from there) up to CFII or even MEI depending on how my money's doing.

Just a few more questions for you. First, I've always had problems studying for orals, not knowing what to study and how to say it. I tried the oral exam guide, but for me, it's nothing more than trying to memorize a novel. If I got FBO trained, are there resources aside from the oral exam guides that will help me with getting ready for the orals? Also, since I know that ME time is clutch, would it be worth it to go for the MEI and not have to throw out the $300/hr for a seminole for some ME time?

Wow, I am a needy one!
A320fan is offline  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:25 AM
  #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 154
Default

That sounds like a very good plan to me, just make sure to get the most credits transferred to U of W that you can get. For orals, study everything you can get your hands on...all the books you have, FAR/AIM, oral exam guides are just the beginning. Look on the internet too, just search "private pilot study questions" or "faa instrument rating questions," something to that effect and you'll find quite a bit of study material. Also, ask yourself different scenarios, issues with the airplane or emergencies and what is the proper and best solution to deal with it. I would recommend getting the MEI if you know you'll have multi students to train. If not you might just want to get up to CFII and start training students to build up your time. You can usually find someone to split multi time building with you locally just ask around the airport for someone who owns a light twin, see if you can fly right seat with them when they go on trips or just take a spin around the pattern...you'll be surprised at how many pilots love helping other pilots out and also love to show off their airplane by taking you up...its like a win-win for them and you. If you need multi time quick you can pay places like air-ben in florida and they'll get you as much as you need. Hope this helps.
boeingt7 is offline  
Old 09-02-2009, 11:42 AM
  #10  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,102
Default

The added bonus of journalism is that it is a skill that you can easily maintain on the back burner while flying ...occasional articles, blogs, industry interaction, etc. Then if you ever need to go full-time you can ramp up pretty quickly.
rickair7777 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Smash312
Aviation Law
37
08-21-2014 07:32 AM
PinnacleFO
Major
26
07-23-2009 06:34 PM
vagabond
Foreign
1
03-06-2009 07:40 AM
cessna126
Europe
2
12-17-2008 09:41 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices