Clearance from airport underlying Bravo
02-21-2010, 08:53 AM
#1
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Clearance from airport underlying Bravo
Newbie here, just starting to get a taste of Bravo airspaces.
Let's say you are going to depart Orlando Exec which underlies Orlando Int'l. Will the Orlando Exec controller's copy clearance contain an understood clearance into the Overlying bravo? They'll be giving you the frequency for Orlando approach so you're already connected with the bravo controllers then. My thought is that if they start giving you climbing instructions, say climb to 3,000ft, you're being put up into the bravo technically without them saying the "cleared" magic word for VFR. Haven't done this before, but I would just expect them to have you fly through the bravo towards your destination rather than keep you below 1,600ft for 5-10 miles which just doesn't sound that great over a relatively populated area if you have engine trouble. Any clarifications?
Let's say you are going to depart Orlando Exec which underlies Orlando Int'l. Will the Orlando Exec controller's copy clearance contain an understood clearance into the Overlying bravo? They'll be giving you the frequency for Orlando approach so you're already connected with the bravo controllers then. My thought is that if they start giving you climbing instructions, say climb to 3,000ft, you're being put up into the bravo technically without them saying the "cleared" magic word for VFR. Haven't done this before, but I would just expect them to have you fly through the bravo towards your destination rather than keep you below 1,600ft for 5-10 miles which just doesn't sound that great over a relatively populated area if you have engine trouble. Any clarifications?
02-21-2010, 10:25 AM
#2
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There might be special procedures locally between ORL tower and Orlando Approach control to coordinate such things. However, in general don't assume you've been cleared into the Bravo unless you specifically hear it (VFR). I fly out of an airport underneath a Bravo and for VFR flights we always get the verbal clearance prior to entry.
02-21-2010, 01:40 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
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Nowhere in any publication does it say you need to hear "cleared into the bravo." All you need is an ATC clearance. If they tell you to climb to 3000 feet, and that brings you into the bravo, then you will fly into the bravo on an ATC clearance, and it is legal. The same goes with headings; if they instruct you to turn to a heading that will bring you into the bravo, you are following ATC instructions. It still never hurts to ask and get it on the tapes just to cover your ***. However, for your private pilot training and career as a VFR pilot, it's still considered a very sound practice to ask for and receive "clearance into the bravo" before you enter.
02-21-2010, 02:44 PM
#5
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I wouldn't be so sure about the "heading or altitude change will take me in there so I'm cleared" approach.
I've been flying a lot around the Orlando class B airspace, and I've heard many different radio calls being made.
When talking to clearance delivery, my students will sometimes say things like "cleared to the north practice area" and the clearance delivery guy/girl will hastily reply back "no, that was not a clearance, you are not cleared anywhere".
The can give you climbs, vectors etc, but you haven't received a clearance before you hear the word cleared into, through etc.
Taking off from St. Petersburg (under Tampa's class Bravo), the clearance delivery guy actually does use the world "cleared", very close to the verbage used in an IFR clearance.
From what I've understood when talking to ATC class bravo controllers (face to face), without the word "cleared" used somewhere, you're not really allowed to enter the class Bravo
I've been flying a lot around the Orlando class B airspace, and I've heard many different radio calls being made.
When talking to clearance delivery, my students will sometimes say things like "cleared to the north practice area" and the clearance delivery guy/girl will hastily reply back "no, that was not a clearance, you are not cleared anywhere".
The can give you climbs, vectors etc, but you haven't received a clearance before you hear the word cleared into, through etc.
Taking off from St. Petersburg (under Tampa's class Bravo), the clearance delivery guy actually does use the world "cleared", very close to the verbage used in an IFR clearance.
From what I've understood when talking to ATC class bravo controllers (face to face), without the word "cleared" used somewhere, you're not really allowed to enter the class Bravo
02-21-2010, 02:54 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by Photon
I wouldn't be so sure about the "heading or altitude change will take me in there so I'm cleared" approach.
I've been flying a lot around the Orlando class B airspace, and I've heard many different radio calls being made.
When talking to clearance delivery, my students will sometimes say things like "cleared to the north practice area" and the clearance delivery guy/girl will hastily reply back "no, that was not a clearance, you are not cleared anywhere".
The can give you climbs, vectors etc, but you haven't received a clearance before you hear the word cleared into, through etc.
Taking off from St. Petersburg (under Tampa's class Bravo), the clearance delivery guy actually does use the world "cleared", very close to the verbage used in an IFR clearance.
From what I've understood when talking to ATC class bravo controllers (face to face), without the word "cleared" used somewhere, you're not really allowed to enter the class Bravo
I've been flying a lot around the Orlando class B airspace, and I've heard many different radio calls being made.
When talking to clearance delivery, my students will sometimes say things like "cleared to the north practice area" and the clearance delivery guy/girl will hastily reply back "no, that was not a clearance, you are not cleared anywhere".
The can give you climbs, vectors etc, but you haven't received a clearance before you hear the word cleared into, through etc.
Taking off from St. Petersburg (under Tampa's class Bravo), the clearance delivery guy actually does use the world "cleared", very close to the verbage used in an IFR clearance.
From what I've understood when talking to ATC class bravo controllers (face to face), without the word "cleared" used somewhere, you're not really allowed to enter the class Bravo
USMCFLYR
02-21-2010, 04:08 PM
#7
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Posts: 826
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I understand your points - and every poster had said that it is a good approach to take - but as the references above state otherwise (FAR reference provided) - can you point to the actual reference that supports your last sentence? If you are under radar contact and receiving assigned headings and/or altitudes then are you NOT operating on a ATC clearence?
USMCFLYR
USMCFLYR
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0/Doremire.pdf
==============================
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
==============================
Bottom line: IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared." Period. You may have heard some words from ATC that sounded a lot like permission, and even ATC may think they gave you permission – in which case, no harm no foul.
But, unless you hear the word "cleared" you ain't cleared and if you do something that requires one and ATC's opinion is that you were not cleared, no matter waht they said, you lose.
02-21-2010, 04:51 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
Ok. How about this reference?
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0/Doremire.pdf
==============================
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
==============================
Bottom line: IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared." Period. You may have heard some words from ATC that sounded a lot like permission, and even ATC may think they gave you permission – in which case, no harm no foul.
But, unless you hear the word "cleared" you ain't cleared and if you do something that requires one and ATC's opinion is that you were not cleared, no matter waht they said, you lose.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0/Doremire.pdf
==============================
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
==============================
Bottom line: IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared." Period. You may have heard some words from ATC that sounded a lot like permission, and even ATC may think they gave you permission – in which case, no harm no foul.
But, unless you hear the word "cleared" you ain't cleared and if you do something that requires one and ATC's opinion is that you were not cleared, no matter waht they said, you lose.
That is a great letter (of course written by a lawyer
) and certainly seems to contradict the reference that I provided. I'm not sure where you got that letter from, but with your permission, I'll forward that letter to the author of the book and see what his take is on it too. There is a clear difference between the author's last statement and the letter that you provided (regarding what constitutes a ATC clearence). I wonder though if this is yet another instance of how you read the regulations. Since being on this forum I've seen plenty of examples of people getting differeing answers from FSDOs for example on the same question.USMCFLYR
02-21-2010, 04:56 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
Ok. How about this reference?
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0/Doremire.pdf
==============================
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
==============================
Bottom line: IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared." Period. You may have heard some words from ATC that sounded a lot like permission, and even ATC may think they gave you permission – in which case, no harm no foul.
But, unless you hear the word "cleared" you ain't cleared and if you do something that requires one and ATC's opinion is that you were not cleared, no matter waht they said, you lose.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0/Doremire.pdf
==============================
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
==============================
Bottom line: IFR or VFR, whatever airspace you happend to be talking about, you are not on a clearance, unless you hear the word "cleared." Period. You may have heard some words from ATC that sounded a lot like permission, and even ATC may think they gave you permission – in which case, no harm no foul.
But, unless you hear the word "cleared" you ain't cleared and if you do something that requires one and ATC's opinion is that you were not cleared, no matter waht they said, you lose.
USMCFLYR
02-21-2010, 05:19 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I do know that when entering Restricted airspace that all I needed to do was to have established radio contact (the controller at least having used my callsign IIRC) in order to enter the Restricted Area.
USMCFLYR
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