R Banger

Hey guys I have searched and found some responses regarding my question, but I did want a little feedback so I can be sure what I do is legal.

I am a CFI at a local flight school in Utah and I have a gentlemen with an expired PPL wanting to do a BFR with me. One of his requests is to do some spin training to get familiar with the recovery procedures. Our school is fine with doing them so long as we are legal, we use a Cessna 152 for spins. We do not have parachutes though, the spin training we do is for CFI applicants. Now from what I have read by searching the forum a lot have said that so long as I endorse the persons logbook as training towards a CFI rating then we don't need the parachutes or even a commercial rating. I was wondering what you guys think of the situation, what would be the best and most legal way to go about this, and what regs will support this? I appreciate the help guys. I checked out 91.307 and it says if it is required for a rating or certificate then no parachute is required. I am wondering if someone is deficient in the spin and stall awareness area and wants to do the training as part of their BFR, then would that make a difference. There is so much gray area with this I want to see if we can clear it up. Thanks in advance.

NoyGonnaDoIt

You don't need to endorse it "as training toward the CFI." Just as training.

The reg. 91.307(d), says that the rule requiring parachutes
==============================
... does not apply to -
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by -
(i) A certificated flight instructor...
==============================

All it means is that "if any certificate or rating" requires a maneuver, in can be done during training. It does not say, "but only when the pilot is actively pursuing the certificate or rating that requires the maneuver at the time the maneuver is performed."

So, there is no requirement that the "student" be going for the particular certificate or rating that the maneuver is required for. IOW, if you, as a primary instructor, wanted to teach a pre-solo student pilot spins, a parachute would not be required.

Or, as the FAA Chief Counsel put it more than 30 years ago (the reg had a different location but used the same words) ...

==============================
Regardless of what certificate or rating the applicant is seeking, an acrobatic maneuver required for any pilot certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the applicant) may be performed without parachutes when done by, or at the direction of, a certificated flight instructor.
==============================

But a question - what is an "expired PPL."

Ewfflyer

I agree completely with Noygonnadoit, and I have done this type of training with all the students I ever had in 152's. Invaluable training in my mind!

rickair7777

x3, it's perfectly legal.

But remember, the FAA removed spins from all ratings except the CFI because they were killing more people in training then the spin training was saving later.

If you haven't done spins lately, go up with someone who has and check your W&B limits carefully.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Kind of interesting history. Actually the FAA removed spin training from all certificates and ratings including the CFI because of the number of deaths.

Then some years later they brought it back for CFIs.

R Banger

One of the questions is that the FAR states that it is for a "student". Would somebody who has their private license doing a BFR be considered a student?

rickair7777

You can give dual to anyone, for a wide variety of valid reasons. The FAR does NOT require that the pilot be a "student".

NoyGonnaDoIt

What FAR states that it is for a "student?"

R Banger

Whoops I didn't realize I wrote that, I was in a hurry when I put the post up. I meant that he was due for a flight review. Disregard that.

I will check and clarify on the student issue. I just want to be very thorough with my reasoning. The FAA always leaves so much gray area and opinions on certain topics always vary between FSDOs. Thanks for the help so far guys.

NoyGonnaDoIt

btw, depending on whatever led you to think that one of the regs specified that it had to be a student, remember that unless it's talking about a "student pilot" (meaning one who holds a student pilot certificate or no certificate at all), it's just English - a student is just someone who takes instruction.

Yeah, the rules can be gray at times, but we're the ones who tend to make them grayer that they really are.