sjones

Hello all,

This is my first post, so please forgive me if any of this has been beaten to death.
My dilemma is this, I am 25 years old and have about a year to year and a half of school left (4year). Where I live, UND has a branch campus which is where I received my PPL. I also had been introduced to the Mesa program and I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about that program. But my question is this: should I stay here and finish w/ UND and try to build time wh or should I either finish school and go to Mesa or go to Mesa and try to finish school while down there?
I don't know all the complaints about Mesa, but the program seems to have a great success rate and what's the big deal when you look at the bigger picture? If I was to go there, it will take me less time and I could upgrade faster to the left seat and hopefully get out of there. But I just dont know......I would love to hear everyone's insight.
Thanks again...

surreal1221

I would suggest finishing school where you are now, as quickly as possible.

Mesa has mixed feelings because, simply put, people's opinions of the place vary. I for one, will not go down there to fly.

Places such as Ari-Ben, All-ATP can provide the same training, in a more respectable environment (where you are treated as the customer as opposed to a future pawn in JO's master plan).

In the end, I don't even have my PPL yet. I plan to finish it up within the next 3 months at a Part 61 school, while working full time, and attending college part time.

I really don't know what to tell you specifically about MAPD. Except that, make sure you ask questions, and be willing to hear the answers as they may not be as rosey as Mesa paints their program out to be. Just don't jump off the deep end and go towards Jet U or Gulfstream.

LAfrequentflyer

Finish school then go to ALLATPS.

-LAFF

STILL GROUNDED

Here is the scoop on that. I am a Mesa Pilot (bash on) so I can tell you what happens. Yes there are quick upgrades at times, the thing is if you look at the ATP rating requirements you'll see that 500 hours of PIC is one of them. When you do a "program" you'll never get 500 hours PIC before you get hired. Which means you have to meet an ICAO equivilent. I think it is something like 2500TT hour because half of you SIC is allowed but you cannot count that time toward your total time if you use it for PIC. Its pretty wack.

At mesa most likely you'll go to a Jet with low time. That is because you are not upgradable at 1500TT because of the ATP mins. Which means upgrade will be closer to 3-4 years. Not that this is a bad idea. The CFI's/Freight dogs and basic dues payers go to airmidwest BE1900's where the upgrade can be as soon as you hit ATP mins. They also need guys that can hand fly old antiquated pieces of **** and not shiney new barons or jets with auto pilots and FA's to polish you sack. Yes this is where I work.

Personally I tried the "program" and got burned when my school went belly up, I finished my commercial and CFI's and got a job instructing. I honestly know more than the captains who went through the programs, regardless of which program.

The decision is yours but I hate seeing someone pay 3 times as much and come out the other end meeting a requirement instead of actually having knowledge. No offense to the guys that have done it but I found what I did not know the minute I started instructing.

ryane946

Well said. Are you getting a 4 year degree at UND? If so, there is no question in my mind that you should stay there. Yes, the topic of the 4 year college degree has been beaten to death, so I am going to copy/paste my response as to why it is important. But if you are 75% there, just wait 1 more year. It is so worth it.

Let me throw out a few situations...

-You are 40 years old, flying for a living, making good $$$ with a wife, 2 kids, and a home. You go to the doctor to get your 1st class medical, but your blood pressure is too high! No medical certificate. Now what? Will you go and wait tables for minimum wage? Should have gone to college to get that degree.

-You are 40 years old. Been at a regional airline for 15 years, making 80k a year. Plenty of PIC turbine flight time. More than enough to go with a good airline that will soon pay you more than twice what you make at that regional. Southwest, FedEx, whatever major airline is doing good at the time. Oh well, majors are out of the question. Should have gone to college to get that degree.

-You are 25 years old. You are a FO at your regional. Suddenly, your airline goes out of business. The economy is in a recession, and therefore multiple airlines have pilots on the streets. Sure, there are 1 or 2 companies hiring, but those 10,000hr airline guys are taking those jobs. No good flying jobs anywhere. Aviation sucks. I want to get out, but how? Should have gone to college to get that degree.


If there is one thing I can tell you about the airline industry with absolute certainty, it's that there is NO CERTAINTY! The only stability is INSTABILITY. This industry is cyclical. One day Pan Am and TWA are ruling the sky. The next day they don't exist. One day your making 300k a year with a fat pension. The next day you take a 30% paycut with almost no pension. One day your on the top of the world flying a Boeing 737. The next day your unemployeed.

This is where the college degree comes in. You should be prepared. At the bare minimum, a college degree is a good backup in this unpredictable industry. If it gets so bad that you (or your family) cannot handle it, get out. But you will be hard pressed to find a good job without a college degree. Not to mention you are cutting your aviation career opportunities in half. WITHOUT a college degree, your career will likely end at a regional making a max of 90k a year. WITH a college degree, your career can end at a major airline, flying heavy jets, making 180k a year. By not getting a college degree, you are ultimately trading A LITTLE money now for A LOT of money later on. You will be kicking yourself later for that decision.

If for nothing else (backup, aviation career opportunities, etc...), getting a 4 year degree should be the best 4 years of your life. They were for me. They are for most people. And you will be a better, more educated person.
I know some smart people who didn't get college degrees. But I can tell you that ALL of them (yes, every single one) wishes they had got a college degree, and they highly recommend getting one to younger kids. Not that you can't be successful without a degree, just that it is a lot harder and a lot more unlikely.

I would recommend with all my might that you get a college degree.


Also, the mesa program is a bad deal. Not because of the whole fly a jet a low time thing, but because they require u to get an AA degree. Why do u wanty an AA degree. It is worthless. You should either get a college degree, or no degree at all. An AA is useless. Since you will already have a 4 year degree, you will waste a lot of time there (in other words, it will take you longer to start flying than if you had been instructing).

As for the general pay for FO training route, I think still grounded brought up a big point that they don't advertise. To upgrade to captain, you must have 500PIC. You will only have about 100PIC. So you must have your 1500TT PLUS an extra 800hrs to make up for that missing PIC. To get from 300hrs (all your licenses and ratings) to 2300hrs, you must spend 3-4 years as a regional FO. That is too long. Regional FO is a worse job than flight instructing. You make more $$$ as a flight instructor, and you are home everynight. So why would u want to skip instructing? That ATP upgrade requirement is something that these airline academies do not advertise, and for good reason.

Your best bet is to finish college, get your licenses and ratings, instruct for about a year, then move onto a regional of your choice.

sjones

Thank you for your opinions so far. Just for clarification, I am attending another university and had learned to fly w/ UND at a branch campus. I agree that since I am close to finishing it's best to finish up. I was just torn on which avenue to pursue. One thing I neglected to write earlier was that I am currently a employee of Horizon Air. Which if I stayed w/ UND and built up my time I could apply from with in and hope to get an interview. I think the chief pilot is a UND grad, however I won't go back to the main campus, I think having my certificates from them would hold some value and being a employee.
Anyway, thanks for your input.

sjones

BTW, can anyone give me more information regarding the ATP program. I had never heard of it until reading the posts. I have been to their web site but would like to hear more from you guys. Has anyone attended the school? Does it really have a good success factor leading into a regional? Stuff like that. Thanks again.

AirWillie

MESA program does have a good success but that's only because MESA is a revolving door for pilots, for every 20 that get hired 20 walk out. They will hire anybody. And many fail to realise that yes, you will have a higher seniority but you won't have the hours required to upgrade. Total time needed to upgrade is around 3000 at mesa. That equals to about 3 years of flying FO assuming you started with 300 hours and fly the 75 hour minimum every month. If you had become a CFI you would have the hours and would have been ready for an upgrade in a year or so. Your decision, mesa FOs are the lowest paid in the industry.