thegoblin

I took my IFR check ride last year and failed it twice. I was very upset as I thought my chances in the airlines were now pretty slim. I eventually got all those thoughts out of my head, but now that I am nearing training for my commercial ticket, they've come back. I’ve been pretty embarrassed to tell this story, but here’s the beans.

I passed the oral fine, and on the first approach I was performing a VOR/GPS overlay approach but forgot to change the CDI to GPS and flew the VOR instead. On my second try while approaching mins my DE told me "don't look up (from the hood) until I tell you to." I took this literally, and I didn't look up. I hit minimums and stayed there, flying past the airport. I questioned him a minute later and he asked if I knew where I was. I did. He then failed me because I didn't go around. I would of, as I've done many times before in training, but his last comment and his complete lack pre-flight briefing created this misunderstanding. I told him this and he had no answer, I was fuming in the cockpit, as this communication misunderstanding cost me another $400, and more importantly, another pink slip towards my future career. I landed and didn’t speak one word as he typed my failure into the computer.

I would like to also point out I took his aircraft safety class in college and earned an A. He knew who I was from class, and even complemented me, twice, on my flying ability and landings after my failed check rides. He also told my flight instructor, who told me (for whatever reason remains unknown) that he hasn’t failed a student twice in his 30 or so years examining… Real nice, right?


On my third try, and to my relief, he told me he had thought a lot about the circumstances of my second failure and would not fail me again, but issue a discontinuance if needed. I passed and he told me how great of a pilot I was, telling me my ILS was flown to ATP standards and how impressed he was. I didn’t care though; I’ve already failed twice, something his other students have never done. He reassured me my chances wouldn’t be hurt in the airlines—I smelled BS.

I’m looking for some insight. I’ve searched and never found anything about a student failing a check ride multiple times and the impact on their career. Do I own up to this and turn it into a learning experience? That’s what I am leaning towards; I guess after all, I could have clarified what he meant. Will airlines consider this as a training liability, or is this too early in my training? He also mentioned the possibly of filing a note on my second pink slip, not quite sure, but can airlines look at this? I appreciate the thoughts.

detpilot

It sounds as if you are not really owning up to this as of now. Your shot at being an airline pilot is not hampered, but you will need to be able to honestly talk about what you learned. If the examiner tells you not to look up until he says so, and you fly through the missed approach point, then it was a clear failure on your part. ALWAYS go missed at the MAP, unless you have the runway in sight... that's the lesson that you need to have honestly learned, and be able to let interviewers know that you've learned.

Does not reflect well on the examiner. If this is true, then that's not good... examiners are supposed to be completely objective. If you flew through the MAP again, then it's his responsibility to fail, not discontinue, you.

Der Meister

For both of the failed rides I have to side with the examiner on those ones. But It wont hamper your chances at the airlines. They might ask you what happened but be honest. There are other rides in your future before you become an airline pilot.

AKASHA

If it makes you feel any better, I failed my private, instrument and CFI the first times around. It has never had any negative affect on my career. If anything, it helped me to work through adversity and recognize my defensive nature. The instrument and CFI failures were with the same examiner. There was defininately a personality conflict there. I wanted to blame him. But I failed those rides for valid reasons.

The situation with the examiner happened early and helped better prepare me down the road. Not to get too philosophical here, but understand that a lot of good can come out of your intrument failures... just keep the attitude positive. And as the others say, be prepared to talk about it in the interview. Don't try to shift blame. Fess up. You'll be fine.

Cubdriver

From what I read here about airline HR practices, you had better find a way to start seeing these two failures as your own doing. End of story. You really need to sing the "I admit the error in my ways" song for an application to be be seriously considered. That's just the way the system works. Even if the alleged transgression was not fully your own doing and many of us have glitches in our past we have to deal with, you need to be firmly certain the system does work and somehow you just didn't get it right on that occasion. I know that's asking a lot, and don't lie to yourself either, but think about it from the interviewer's side. If you are an interviewer and an applicant says an issue was not their fault, are you likely to A) believe them despite not having been there, take a risk on their being a compulsive rationalizer, or B) prefer someone who says they admit they were wrong and takes responsibility for a mistake and is eager to avoid it in the future at all costs and still wants to play the game? The interviewer knows there are shades of gray to almost every issue and you may have come up short on one of them. They are willing to forgive a few transgressions if good faith seems to be present, especially if when the problems do not form a pattern or they are far enough in the past.

Singlecoil

Were these phase checks under part 141 or were these checkrides under part 61?

USMCFLYR

Do DE's admnister 'phase checks' at P141 schools?
at my school, it was just a more senior instructor or the Chief Instructor who did those checks and you never saw an actual DE until it was time for the *real* checkride.
I get the feeling from his posts that it was the actual checkride.
Pink slip included.

USMCFLYR

Cubdriver

DE's are not required for Part 141 checks. I had a student fail one, they are more like internal school affairs and are not taken all that seriously unless the FAA starts looking into it or there is an extenuating circumstance suggesting a systemic problem with the school. This might happen when

1) seeing that too many students from a P141 school are failing FAA checkrides
2) hearing through the grapevine that a school is having a lot of trouble with internal stage check failures
3) FAA does a routine audit of a P141 school and find out the school is having a lot of stage check failures

On the other hand, a pink slip given by a DE is a documented failure that goes in the history books for all time. No sweeping that under the table. That's why you simply cannot omit them in your job apps, you need to see the light about your failure and try not to do it again.

rickair7777

141 schools can either do internal checkrides with specially designated and certified instructors (usually CP's) or farm out the actual checkride to a DPE or Fed. Not all 141 schools are allowed to do internal checkrides.

Technically, even if a DPE/Fed does the ride it is still a 141 End of Course check and should not result in a pink slip.

The only time a 141 student should get a pink slip is if the conscious decision is made to terminate 141 training and take the checkride part 61. This is a common sense approach when the student has achieved proficiency (usually due to previous non-141 training) but would still need many more hours to complete the 141 syllabus (which is required to take a 141 EOC check).

thegoblin

Thanks for the advice guys. I think this experience will probably make me a better pilot in the long run as the cause of these failures are something I will never forget. To clarify this was Part 61.