lstorm2003

So last night I took a trip for the 4th of July down to Key West in a 182. I've made this trip at least 5 times before so I'm not really new to it, but this was 1 of only a couple of times when we planned to return at night. We departed runway 9 straight out and planned to over-fly Marathon before turning North towards Fort Lauderdale. I'm an instrument rated pilot but what happened next still spooked me a bit. As we're climbing out I start to realize just how dark of a night it is. This was a really eiree feeling, I was on top of a broken cloud layor and as I approached my selected cruise altitude of 5500 ft I realized there was absoluty no horizon, and no moon. I was VFR, but actually IMC. I had no reference to the horizon whatsoever and I could barely make out dark clouds ahead of me but I couldn't see enough to know if I was at thier level, above them, or below them. I had checked the weather before I left and it was reported to be pretty good, with a chance of an isolated thunderstorm. In my experience these are pretty easy to avoid at night, as you can see them lighting up from 50 miles away. But these were just clouds. Then bam out of nowhere I was in the soup. The strobes flashed brightly against the clouds creating a strobostophic effect on the prop which was very distracting. I immediatly shut them off and was being bounced around in moderate turbulance. The airspeed went from 130 to 145 in an instant, and I reduced power and thought about the situation. I started a decent and was out of the cloud in about a minute or so but it just caught me by complete surpise. Its one thing to file IFR and just not pay attention to exactly when you'll be in and out of cloud, but its quite another to be VFR and try to avoid clouds on a night when its IMMPOSSIBLE TO SEE THEM!!

ddd333

Sounds like an exciting flight. If you're instrument rated and current, just file next time and you won't feel bad about it!

Grumble

Now you know what happened to JFK Jr. Overwater flight, day or night, is not really a place for the non-instrument rated. If you think that's dark, try 1800 miles off shore at 1200' under an over cast on a moonless night. You may as well just paint the windows black, you'd never know the difference.

lstorm2003

I can only imagine! I'll tell you what though, I would NEVER want to be 1800 miles off shore at 1200'! If I had to be 1800 miles off shore, it better be in some type of crewed jet with at least 2 engines and I better be at something like FL360... :-)

lstorm2003

So by the way now my next question is how do I log this time? Can I log this as IMC Actual? I suppose not since I didn't file IFR. Next time I take this flight I'll definatly be filing IFR.

Although I do have another question for folks out there. The IFR preferred route when going from Key West to Fort Lauderdale wants you to basically turn North very early and be over open water for longer than I'm comfortable. This is why my normal procedure is to over fly Marathon (and in fact pass Marathon by about 10 miles) before turning to the North for Fort Lauderdale. This minimizes the time spent over the water. In the past I've even tried filing IFR via Marathon, but when I get my clearance they always change it to the IFR preferred route which keeps me offshore much longer. How do I avoid this? The only way I know how is by asking for a different route once airborne. Usually they are cooperative, and I know if they won't let me do what I want I can always just cancel IFR, but how can I get my initial clearance to match what I've asked for? Is this even possible?

Luv2Rotate

Tell them you cannot accept their clearance due to glide distance and you need to stay with your route.

topprospect16

Don't log the actual.

Say unable to accept clearance unless they are willing to add an engine or floats. They usually get the idea.

smugglersblues

Actual Inst conditions occur when when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircrafts instruments in order to maintain adequate control. This may occur in the case of a moonless night over water with no discernible horizon.
(FAA legal opinion--Nov 7, 1984)

grecoaj

Filing any kind of flight plan has nothing to do with the conditions of the flight, as logged.

61.51 g 1: A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Anyone have a definition for instrument flight conditions? It might have something to do with cloud clearance and visibility being less than those required for VFR. I'm assuming you operated the aircraft for some amount of time solely by reference to the instruments. If you feel that the conditions you were in were considered instrument flight conditions, then could you not log the instrument time?

The following is a portion snipped from an FAA legal opinion document referenced by smugglersblues:

"..."Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate."

lstorm2003

So does it cause any problem for me to log actual IMC despite the fact that i was not operating on an IFR flight plan and an IFR clearance?