Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-25-2013, 03:45 PM   #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
PearlPilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: DHC-8 SIC
Posts: 632
Default My take on the 1500 hour rule

As some of you know I am a full time CFI. I currently have 1150 TT and 35 ME. I am of course in the process of building 1500 hours and 50 hours ME that qualifies for me to apply for a part 121 airline. Without surprise I received numerous responses from airlines kindly asking me to reapply once I reach the minimums. I have been a flight instructor for about a year as of date, and I expect to reach minimums in about six months or so. In my case I can't wait to reach 1500 hours and start applying for the regionals. However, I do feel kind of bad for those new CFIs entering hoping to jump in a right seat of a CRJ or a turboprop. Flight instructing, during the first couple of months can be scary, then it hopefully becomes easy at least in my case. However it is still an exhausting profession. I made 23K last year! Being 27 and living with my folks and having no major loans enabled me to support the life.
How will the 1500 hour rule change the industry? Would it force more applicants to seek aviation degrees or join the military as it will reduce hiring criteria? On a side note, my answer to safety is not 1500 hours and I personally don't think hours can make a pilot safe. If I were the king of the FAA I would perhaps implement more training on stalls, icing and any other aspects of flying that pertains to air carrier operations. (Yes Colgan 3407 comes to my mind) I don't however think a 250 hour candidate is qualified to fly a CRJ.
Flight instructing is a great way to go, but I think, (and this is something I feel that may happen) the number of candidates who are willing to give 1250 dual time may drastically decrease...
Therefore, how would a candidate build 1500 hours if they happened to be purely "civilian" (non-military, non aviation degrees). I truly hope it will not result in a decrease in the already declining pilot population. Should the FAA revisit the rule? If not, perhaps flight schools should or will have to drastically increase the pay of CFIs...
PearlPilot is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:17 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
atpcliff's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 2,964
Default

I got out of the USAF and had an ATP-MEL.

I applied at about 80 places and got one interview. I didn't have enough experience.
atpcliff is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:29 PM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
doublerjay's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 134
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlPilot View Post
I truly hope it will not result in a decrease in the already declining pilot population. Should the FAA revisit the rule? If not, perhaps flight schools should or will have to drastically increase the pay of CFIs...

Where is the declining pilot population? I keep hearing about it....I have almost the exact same numbers as you do, 1100 TT and about 175 multi. CFII MEI
doublerjay is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:38 PM   #4  
Line Holder
 
grasshoppr's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 54
Default

I'm right with you. 1250 and 50. Building time and hope to have enough hours in a few months to move on.
What regionals are you considering?
grasshoppr is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:44 PM   #5  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 25,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
I got out of the USAF and had an ATP-MEL.

I applied at about 80 places and got one interview. I didn't have enough experience.
Did you have 1500 hours of military flight time??? Something else is going on here...
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 04:50 PM   #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
JamesNoBrakes's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,446
Default

It's a pyramid scheme. We try to keep attracting a bunch of pilots to keep our flight schools in business and our instructors employed, but there's a problem, the problem is you can't take 10 instructors and 100 students and then turn those 100 students into instructors, then they'd have to train 1000 students. The reality is that those 10 instructors may eventually go on to jobs, but that only leaves 10 open positions. The other 90 students have to find "other jobs". These other jobs simply don't exist anymore. Unless you are training mainly foreign students, it's a pyramid scheme that keeps collapsing every once and a while. When it does, people go in different directions, get out of aviation, etc. Or the industry picks up a bunch of pilots real fast, only to furlough them a few months down the road. This doesn't have much to do with the 1500 rule in terms of safety, it just has to do with reality.

The 1500 rule thing is due to economics. If you are an insurance company, would you rather that the airline increase the minimum to 1500 if the quality is better, or let the 250 wonders in if they meet certain standards? As the person applying, you'd probably like the latter option. Problem is, it takes money to put more comprehensive tests in there, evaluate someone in multiple situations, assess someone fairly. If you can get a higher overall quality with less money spent, then that's where it's going to go. That's where 1500 comes from. It's no guarantee, it's not even going to be a better pilot in some cases, but it's going to waste less time and resources trying to find the adequate pilots, because there are likely more of them at the 1500 level than the 250.

Lastly, if you're only making 23K as a flight instructor, what are you doing about it? Are you being paid fairly? Have you brought this up? Are you charging for your time correctly? If you're there with the student, you should be paid. Does the doctor only charge for the time he is doing something physically, or the entire time he spends with you? If you are there with the student, you are responsible for their safety. Your prebrief + preflight inspection (coming out when he is nearly done) should be at least half an hour. Shutdown and post-brief should also be around half an hour, if you are providing quality instruction at all. If your student doesn't show up with an assignment completed that you told them to complete, you sit there and complete it on their time, and charge them for it. You NEVER overcharge students, but you also compensate yourself fairly. If your preflight was wasted because a discrepancy was found and you had to get another aircraft, your ground time you are going to charge for will likely be more for that flight. You might help them with preflight on the 2nd airplane to be a nice guy, but inevitably the ground charge will be higher due to the longer time spent preflighting overall. You need to build these ideas of fair compensation in yourself and your student. Your students will respect you when you uphold these standards and act fair. You do NOT give them a break in the TIME if you actually spent the TIME. If it's better to make a decision to cancel the flight and do it another day because by the time you get into the air, it will be a waste of time, that's the right call and that's what you do. When you teach XCs you will likely have to go through two entire XCs with them, and then a third one at least partially. With some people they take less, with some they take more. Motivated students can do stuff much faster, and you give them the keys to minimize their cost if they are motivated, but time is time and you never shortchange yourself for what you work. I hope this helps. Through the years when I used to flight instruct I noticed many people "giving the student a break". That's noble on some levels, but it's futile and it only shoots you in the foot. If you want to really do the right thing, charge fairly and make sure you are putting real value in what you teach. Give them keys to study on their own. Make sure they know the PTS and how to study for it. If they waste your time, you charge for the time it takes to teach them what is necessary. If they finish fast because they are motivated, you can get another student that much faster.
JamesNoBrakes is offline  
Old 01-26-2013, 09:43 AM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
brianb's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
Posts: 871
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlPilot View Post
As some of you know I am a full time CFI. I currently have 1150 TT and 35 ME. I am of course in the process of building 1500 hours and 50 hours ME that qualifies for me to apply for a part 121 airline. Without surprise I received numerous responses from airlines kindly asking me to reapply once I reach the minimums. I have been a flight instructor for about a year as of date, and I expect to reach minimums in about six months or so. In my case I can't wait to reach 1500 hours and start applying for the regionals. However, I do feel kind of bad for those new CFIs entering hoping to jump in a right seat of a CRJ or a turboprop. Flight instructing, during the first couple of months can be scary, then it hopefully becomes easy at least in my case. However it is still an exhausting profession. I made 23K last year! Being 27 and living with my folks and having no major loans enabled me to support the life.
How will the 1500 hour rule change the industry? Would it force more applicants to seek aviation degrees or join the military as it will reduce hiring criteria? On a side note, my answer to safety is not 1500 hours and I personally don't think hours can make a pilot safe. If I were the king of the FAA I would perhaps implement more training on stalls, icing and any other aspects of flying that pertains to air carrier operations. (Yes Colgan 3407 comes to my mind) I don't however think a 250 hour candidate is qualified to fly a CRJ.
Flight instructing is a great way to go, but I think, (and this is something I feel that may happen) the number of candidates who are willing to give 1250 dual time may drastically decrease...
Therefore, how would a candidate build 1500 hours if they happened to be purely "civilian" (non-military, non aviation degrees). I truly hope it will not result in a decrease in the already declining pilot population. Should the FAA revisit the rule? If not, perhaps flight schools should or will have to drastically increase the pay of CFIs...
I don't want to upset to many of you guy's out there but, even if you are a "safe" 250hr Pilot, I would still prefer a "safe" 1500hr pilot. I'm not trying to insult you guy's with low time, I'm just trying to be honest with you.
brianb is offline  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:26 AM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
atpwannabe's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Dispatcher
Posts: 2,201
Default

Pearl:

You eluded to the fact that you hope the 1500hr rule doesn't decrease the number of pilots..which is already shrinking. Tests, interviews, background checks and higher minimum criteria are ALL designed to eliminate.

Personally, based on what you posted, and if it comes to past, there will be a huge void of those who meet the 1500 hr rule in about 2-3 years. I dunno...maybe even in less time than that, but I doubt it.


JMO.


atp

Last edited by atpwannabe; 01-26-2013 at 11:55 AM.
atpwannabe is offline  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:31 AM   #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
atpwannabe's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Dispatcher
Posts: 2,201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The 1500 rule thing is due to economics. If you are an insurance company, would you rather that the airline increase the minimum to 1500 if the quality is better, or let the 250 wonders in if they meet certain standards? As the person applying, you'd probably like the latter option. Problem is, it takes money to put more comprehensive tests in there, evaluate someone in multiple situations, assess someone fairly. If you can get a higher overall quality with less money spent, then that's where it's going to go. That's where 1500 comes from. It's no guarantee, it's not even going to be a better pilot in some cases, but it's going to waste less time and resources trying to find the adequate pilots, because there are likely more of them at the 1500 level than the 250.
It's all about the Franklins....."and I ain't talking Aretha"!!!


atp

Last edited by atpwannabe; 01-26-2013 at 11:55 AM.
atpwannabe is offline  
Old 01-26-2013, 04:55 PM   #10  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
PearlPilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: DHC-8 SIC
Posts: 632
Default

Gents, thanks. James, I try my best to get billed as fairly as possible. However, I know I can do better in that area. But I am not going to get anything significant even after that. I am overall having a great time being a CFI, however, I am definitely "concerned" about my future.
Yes I am largely influenced by outside forces. I've (unfortunately, or more correctly realistically) met a half a dozen pilots who have given up or are constantly complaining about the industry. I am told to look at the long term, I am told to consider the poor lifestyle of a regional airline pilot, and I am told to consider that I may not ever make it to the majors. Yes these are all outside forces, that I probably should ignore, after all I am not "them."
But I am having a hard time ignoring them. 1153 hours, 347 to go. Gotta keep plugging away!! Hey, at least I am having a good time doing it!
PearlPilot is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Status of the 1500 hr ATP requirement? Vito Flight Schools and Training 41 10-15-2012 06:34 AM
Query about the new FAR 117 - 30 in 168 rule wxman Aviation Law 2 06-09-2012 10:27 PM
Express Jet Question VIIPILOT Regional 266 05-08-2012 05:48 AM
1500 rule grandfather clause, here it comes! coryk Regional 36 03-22-2012 11:12 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:26 AM.