mozak

For an airplane with no GPS (/A or /U), how would (or should) you file from an uncontrolled airport in the boonies with no nearby VOR, just a couple nearby airways with an intersection within maybe 10-30 miles? Do you list that nearest intersection as the entry point and go from there, assuming center will vector you?....or in the worst case scenario of lost-comms after departure, the departure clearance is adequate to get you onto the airway? Obviously this isn't all that common anymore since IFR-approved GPSs are a dime a dozen nowadays, but back before the mid to late 90s this was very common. Haven't had a lot of experience flying IFR in the boonies with old equipment, hoping some of you more knowledgeable fold could shed some light on it for me .

CRM114

Does the destination airport have an approach?

Much of the "how to" is in the AIM and the "though shall" is in part 91. You have some legit questions and I'd suggest that you find a CFI with local knowledge to spend an hour or two with, it would be money well spent! I haven't flown GA in forever, but back in the day you'd call the ARTCC on the phone or VHF and get a release time, clearance, etc.
Obstacle clearance on departure is something you need to have down cold, review the regs and AIM.

You'll file from the departure airport to a fix (if a SID doesn't apply) in the NAS and then enroute via airways. Once you're above the MVA and in radar contact, you could be given vectors to a fix downrange.

For arrival, you'd file to a fix that defines the IAF for your boonies airport and start the approach from there. No promises that you'll have radar services so be prepared for full procedure turns and all that fun stuff.

Lost comm: review 91.185 and this:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...aim0604.html.1


I'm sure someone who actually does this will be along and clarify how it's really done.

yimke

What airport is this?

Yes, your first fix would be the nearest logical waypoint that you can identify. If it is an airport that has an ODP, you must follow this on departure. This will usually give you a minimum altitude to turn on course. If it has an IAP, look for your MSA on it to possibly get a lower altitude than the OROCA.

Once you get high enough, it will be wise to ask center for vectors. Since you have no course guidance. Minimum altitude filed should be OROCA rounded up to nearest 1000 then even/odd for flight.

Cubdriver

The clearance you get on the phone from ATC should have an initial heading and altitude for turning on course as well as a off time since they have no idea when to expect you otherwise. Sounds as if this airplane is seriously old, so I would think twice about the difference between legal and safe- if you are launching into the soup with a 50 year old VOR radio and a compass and one or both break, ask yourself how that will work out. At least get a handheld Garmin and take that along as emergency backup. IFR equipment in old airplanes is somewhere between bad and unreliable much of the time.

mozak

I'm actually a CFI/II myself, but don't have a lot of experience picking up clearances on the phone/GCO out in the boonies. My peers are in a similar boat.

I'm not actually planning on doing something like this anytime soon (no need to worry cubdriver!), I'm just looking for the "proper" method as to go about something like this....so if possible looking for people who have flown out of airports like this quite a bit back in the day (prior to GPS being commonplace).

As for example airports; 8V7, OZA, JHN.... Basically airports on an enroute chart that are in the middle of a sea of white, or just next to a Victor airway, but no VOR anywhere relatively close. My question mainly spurs from the fact that if you aren't equipped for RNAV, you can't navigate directly to an intersection....your only chance would be a vector from center, and in the case of lost comms on departure, the departure clearance would have to have some vector, "...upon entering controlled airspace turn right heading tree-six-zero to intercept Victor sixty-six..." But is this how it's been done? Whatever the method, this would have been very common prior to the mid 90s.

As for arriving at airports like this, that's no problem. Just pick an approach at the airport, find the IAF or enroute/feeder fix on the approach plate then find it on the enroute chart....it's the departure that I'm confused about. Speaking of which, whenever you call FSS or ATC on the phone or RCO or GCO, they always want to know what runway you're departing in addition to how long until you're ready. I'm guessing this has to do with it also.

Aviator89

with no GPS i am not super familiar, as i normally file gps direct or get some sort of SID out of chicago, denver etc. but as long as you can identify the nearest fix on the airway its fine to enter the enroute phase at that point. so for example you are leaving KXYZ and the nearest fix on an airway in the direction of your departure is called NOWHRE on the V113 then to vor -ABC v115 to you destinations vor of DEF. i would file as this- KXYZ as the departure point. route - NOWHRE-V113-ABC-V115-DEF- Destination airport. however you would need to get a clearence via the ATC ifr clearance number. 18887668267. similar auto operation as the wx breif, but you get a guy on the phone after you say what state u are leaving. You do this holding short of the runway or while taxiing to your departure end, tell them how soon you will be ready and what runway you are using. they give you your typical IFR clearance, (altitude, cleared route, comm freq's etc.) but with a void time. example, "time now 2113 zulu, void time 2123 zulu, contact flight service/atc by 2128 with intentions.

mozak

Alrighty I think that pretty much answers the question. Thanks everyone for the replies.

Fly Boy Knight

The process of getting out of a "VFR" airport (an airport without any approach procedures) is always a bit tricky just because of all the legal and safety of flight gray areas.

All airports with a published instrument approach procedure receive a takeoff obstruction analysis by the FAA and, if required, they are also assigned non-standard takeoff obstacle-related procedures in order to safely get airplanes out of the airport under IFR. This is the normal "200 ft / NM, no turns below 400ft AGL, and you must get above the Min IFR alt within 25 NM(non mountainous) / 46 NM (mountainous)" thing most are familiar with and applies ANYWHERE that has an instrument approach. The problem is how do we get out of airports that do NOT have an instrument approach and have not had the FAA's takeoff obstruction analysis/procedures done?

Doing this is kinda sketchy and (in my opinion) can take on various shades of legal gray but it can be done as long as the airport you are leaving from is in a place where you can stay within the rules.
According to §91.181 Course to be flown. - Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within controlled airspace under IFR except as follows:

(a) On an ATS route, along the centerline of that airway.

(b) On any other route, along the direct course between the navigational aids or fixes defining that route.

So, this basically says that you have to be flying the DIRECT course BETWEEN navaids or fixes. Obviously, the standard "unless otherwise authorized by ATC" is there for radar vectors and "proceed direct xxxxx" clearances but aside from that, you must be flying the direct course between fixes or navaids when under IFR in controlled airspace. So, you can get away with not flying the direct course when in class G under IFR but once you enter controlled airspace, you must be flying the direct course and, in my opinion, it is pretty hard to argue that you were flying the direct course if you have no means to identify when you were OFF course in order to correct. This is the usual argument against filing from your VFR "direct" to a fix along an airway because you have no legal defense to defend your "direct" course without GPS/RNAV. This is why you file direct to a VOR or NDB because, when you eventually enter controlled airspace, you will be able to fly the direct course. Now, if your airport is in an area where class G extends up to (but not including) 14,500ft MSL, then you have a little more leeway with this.

If you do want to remain in Class G under IFR and "navigate" your way to a fix or airway, the other requirement is complying with §91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, or unless otherwise authorized by the FAA, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below—
.....
(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown.

If you wish to scud run (IFR Style) and stay IFR in Class G, you must be at least 1,000ft above the highest obstacle w/in 4NM of your course of flight. This is most possible in areas where Class G extends up to 14,500 but, at the same time, how do you legally defend your assumed "course to be flown" was actually flown if you have no way to know for SURE beyond dead reckoning? If you wish to "milk" the provision "except as necessary for takfeoff", where do you define where "necessary for takeoff" stops, and the rest of the rule begins?

My point with all of this is to be conscious of how something will "look" in the eyes of an enforcement action. You need to be able to defend yourself when they question whether you followed the rules or not. This simple answer to this problem is if you wanna depart an airport that is not near a VOR and has no approaches.... depart VFR. In Class G during the day below 1,200ft AGL, all you need is 1SM and to remain clear of the clouds. You can do quite a bit with 1sm and C.O.C. If you have 1SM and C.O.C, then depart VFR and pick up your IFR when you know you can meet all of 91.183 / 91.177's requirements. Departing an airport like this under zero:zero conditions invites quite a bit of gray into the mix but if it is 1SM, it is a lot easier to argue you WERE in VFR conditions (how can they prove you weren't if the airport is reporting 1SM or better and they have no other traffic saying something different?) than it would be to argue you had positively ID'ed your course to be flown with dead reckoning.

If this was an airport with an approach (and thus takeoff mins), it is much easier and zero:zero can totally be standard procedure however, these little airports aren't meant to handle IFR departures. 135 and 121 operators are NOT allowed to flying IFR into or out of an airport without a tower / class G airport unless it has an approach and weather. For these operations, going in and out of "VFR" class G airports has to be done under VFR until reaching controlled airspace so the only people who are doing zero:zero departures out of airports with no approaches are part 91 people which is either GA folks or (in my opinion) EXTREMELY shady 91 corporate operations. (or people who haven't been caught + issued an enforcement action yet)

N9373M

Great post. One small comment on the above - make sure you can get high enough VFR to contact ATC, especially if you're in the boonies.

Departed VFR looking to pick up an IFR clearance on an easy IFR day. Before I could get a hold of Center, an airliner heard me and was kind of enough to relay my clearance.

Cubdriver

Good post, and while the law says a 91 operator can take off in bad visibility, that does not make it safe. The GA fleet has the least reliable aircraft and having launched from a podunk field that just became invisible, you may wish (or be forced) to go back which will be very difficult if not impossible. For this reason most people under 91 often depart VFR and pick up a clearance when in radio contact with ATC. Be careful with the hazardous attitude that just getting airborne in poor VFR solves all problems, because it does not.

There is a famous accident study of a 91 corporate jet that did this in Rome, Georgia some years ago. They departed VFR to please the customers on board, but could not get in touch with ATC once airborne and in the meantime lost VFR flying conditions and then hit a hillside. I have even seen this "let's just get airborne" hazardous attitude in at least one check pilot, it is quite a problem but not one we should let ruin our safety analysis. If a situation looks uncomfortable itis probably dangerous, and when additional study does not improve how it looks then consider not going.