k1600gt

Thanks for the advice. I'm only 39 so I still have a long career ahead of me and I want to do it right. I have also been looking at other ways to build hours other than being a CFI at a pilot mill. Some of them look pretty uncoventional but also a lot of fun.

bedrock

As an airline captain, I think being a CFI is essential for airline preparation, because it puts you in an environment of responsibility, decision making, and use of crew resource management--all necessary in the airline environment, that said doing OTHER things besides CFI is important too. I can tell you, that I know pretty quickly when I have flown with someone who has instructed before and someone who hasn't.

k1600gt

I realize individual experiences vary but how long are most the new FO's your flying with taking to get from zero to ATP?

bedrock

I am working at a regional which hasn't been able to recruit many new FO's. From 0-1500 hrs I would expect 3 years, if you train straight through and work consistently. It took me 4 yrs to get almost 2000 hrs from 2000-2004, but there was almost no flying for months after 9/11 and after that it was spotty--I had to work a second job.

I wanted to add that in the PPL it is essential to fly 3x week until you get to the cross country portion of training. Also, make sure you get your third class medical early, because you need it for solo. Make sure you study well in advance and that your instructor is organized and knowledgeable. You are also going to have to flexible to build hours. You'll probably have to move a few times to find work, unless you live in Florida, AZ or southern CA.

Toonces

It was a little of both, but at least at my company we have been able to be selective about our applicants. We have an agreement with ATP (as do other companies) that recognizes the value in their training and will generally extend invites to qualified applicants, but of course it's the interview that counts. From my personal experience with ATP grads, they come to the show with the experience needed to perform well as an FO. Our training department takes care of the rest.


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k1600gt

Thank you again for your advice. It's always good to get first hand experience from those doing the job you hope to get. Fortunately, at least for this reason, I already live in Southern California about 5 minutes from LGB and there are several schools there including ATP. Now I have to weed thru them and find the one that best works for me.

k1600gt

Thank you for your input on the quality of training you are seeing coming out of ATP.

SMACFUM

As a current regional first officer, and a former student of ATP flight school, my advice is to stay far away from ATP. It still amazes me that people fall for their flashy marketing tactics, and it is exactly that. Lots of flashy show, no real substance.

Here are the biggest problems with ATP that I experienced and witnessed:
1) Once they have your money, and your enrolled in the program management treats you like absolute garbage. You are now at their whim, and they call the shots, not you (the paying customer). Being forced to fly in unsafe weather conditions, being forced into taking check-rides you are unprepared for are standard operating procedures at ATP. Threatening and coercion are the norm. If you don't like it tough, just quit and they'll keep a large chunk of your unused deposit. I am still amazed that people put up with that sort of treatment after laying out $70,000+ to the company. DO NOT under-estimate this point.

If this is how they treat their paying customers, you don't even want to know how they treat their employees. Their "guaranteed" flight instructor job is the biggest scam of all. Again, I am absolutely amazed that people are willing to put up with the sort of treatment that ATP management is known to dole out.

2) The pace of the training is ludicrous. Can it be done? Sure, of course. Is it the best way to learn? in my opinion, absolutely not. There is a lot of merit in a full immersion to any type of training including flight training. However, 0 hours to multi-engine commercial pilot and flight instructor in 120 days? That is just too short of a time frame to learn anything beyond just the absolute bare minimum need to pass your check-rides (if your lucky the 1st time).

There is a huge consequence to this style of training that nobody at ATP will tell you. Because the time-frame is so condensed, you need to be extremely self-motivated to have any shot in getting through the program unscathed by multiple check-ride failures (that will be on your FAA record for the remainder of your career). This goes back to the whole management tactic of coercing you into taking check-rides that, at best, you are prepared to pass at only the very minimum standard, or at worst, not prepared to take at all. Need extra ground instruction from your instructor? forget about it. They're too busy flying with other students, and they don't get paid to give ground lessons. Need an extra hour or two in the airplane to be ready for a check-ride? After you get berated by management, they're going to charge you an exorbitant fee for going over the allotted time.

3) The quality of instruction overall is very sub-par. There is only one goal of ATP's instruction - teach the absolute bare minimum to pass your check-rides, get your certificates, and get-out. The reason for this is 1) the time constraints as discussed above and 2) ATP hires back its own graduates to instruct. So, your you're being taught by a guy/gal that has only been flying for 120 days, who was taught by another guy/gal who learned in 120 days, etc. etc. The depth of experience of the instructors is extremely shallow. Also, although most of the instructors are good people, they are motivated by one thing, and one thing only, to fill THEIR log-book with hours and get out ASAP. Most are there to bide their time, and have little to no motivation or intensive to be "instructors" in the true spirit of that word.

To give some perspective, I enrolled in ATP after already accumulating about 200 hours and a private instrument rating. I also spent 2+ years working as a flight instructor at more than one independent flight school (not at ATP), so I feel pretty confident in saying that I am speaking from a pretty wide and diverse perspective within the flight training industry. I absolutely agree with the advice to get your private certificate first, before making any other decisions, ATP or otherwise. You will be in a much better position to make an informed decision on how to proceed from there.

ATP is not all entirely bad, if you already have some experience under your belt, and know what your getting into, they can be an effective means to an end. Just don't buy into all the flashy marketing and hype.

bedrock

ATP's also has a self-paced program now, any input on that for readers? People are always asking me about this place; I went to the one in SAC in the dead of winter, so there was plenty of low IFR. What is ATP's training philosophy, teach you the minimum, BUT give you experience doing the multi-engine cross countries?

I only have experience with their CAPT program which was 35 hrs multi-IFR with another ATP grad. This other pilot seemed to be well trained and experienced, though I kind of ranthe show simply because I was at 1200 hrs, had a fair amt of multi-IFR and preparing to go into air freight.

I will say I was very impressed with maintenance and condition of the Seminoles back in 2003. Every light bulb in the panel worked!--which is more than I can say for the airline i work out now.

CFI Guy

I agree with this 100%. Anyone who says differently is full of it. It's a huge crap shoot. During my time there I witnessed several people leave on not so good terms. I was personally intimidated by management on more than one occasion.

My suggestion is get at least your private at a smaller school and never hand someone a huge chunk of money upfront. One of my selling points to new students is pay-as-you-go.