Is ATP Flight School worth the investment?
05-06-2015, 07:33 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by CFI Guy
My suggestion is get at least your private at a smaller school and never hand someone a huge chunk of money upfront. One of my selling points to new students is pay-as-you-go.
05-07-2015, 04:42 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,090
Originally Posted by SMACFUM
As a current regional first officer, and a former student of ATP flight school, my advice is to stay far away from ATP. It still amazes me that people fall for their flashy marketing tactics, and it is exactly that. Lots of flashy show, no real substance.
Here are the biggest problems with ATP that I experienced and witnessed:
1) Once they have your money, and your enrolled in the program management treats you like absolute garbage. You are now at their whim, and they call the shots, not you (the paying customer). Being forced to fly in unsafe weather conditions, being forced into taking check-rides you are unprepared for are standard operating procedures at ATP. Threatening and coercion are the norm. If you don't like it tough, just quit and they'll keep a large chunk of your unused deposit. I am still amazed that people put up with that sort of treatment after laying out $70,000+ to the company. DO NOT under-estimate this point.
If this is how they treat their paying customers, you don't even want to know how they treat their employees. Their "guaranteed" flight instructor job is the biggest scam of all. Again, I am absolutely amazed that people are willing to put up with the sort of treatment that ATP management is known to dole out.
2) The pace of the training is ludicrous. Can it be done? Sure, of course. Is it the best way to learn? in my opinion, absolutely not. There is a lot of merit in a full immersion to any type of training including flight training. However, 0 hours to multi-engine commercial pilot and flight instructor in 120 days? That is just too short of a time frame to learn anything beyond just the absolute bare minimum need to pass your check-rides (if your lucky the 1st time).
There is a huge consequence to this style of training that nobody at ATP will tell you. Because the time-frame is so condensed, you need to be extremely self-motivated to have any shot in getting through the program unscathed by multiple check-ride failures (that will be on your FAA record for the remainder of your career). This goes back to the whole management tactic of coercing you into taking check-rides that, at best, you are prepared to pass at only the very minimum standard, or at worst, not prepared to take at all. Need extra ground instruction from your instructor? forget about it. They're too busy flying with other students, and they don't get paid to give ground lessons. Need an extra hour or two in the airplane to be ready for a check-ride? After you get berated by management, they're going to charge you an exorbitant fee for going over the allotted time.
3) The quality of instruction overall is very sub-par. There is only one goal of ATP's instruction - teach the absolute bare minimum to pass your check-rides, get your certificates, and get-out. The reason for this is 1) the time constraints as discussed above and 2) ATP hires back its own graduates to instruct. So, your you're being taught by a guy/gal that has only been flying for 120 days, who was taught by another guy/gal who learned in 120 days, etc. etc. The depth of experience of the instructors is extremely shallow. Also, although most of the instructors are good people, they are motivated by one thing, and one thing only, to fill THEIR log-book with hours and get out ASAP. Most are there to bide their time, and have little to no motivation or intensive to be "instructors" in the true spirit of that word.
To give some perspective, I enrolled in ATP after already accumulating about 200 hours and a private instrument rating. I also spent 2+ years working as a flight instructor at more than one independent flight school (not at ATP), so I feel pretty confident in saying that I am speaking from a pretty wide and diverse perspective within the flight training industry. I absolutely agree with the advice to get your private certificate first, before making any other decisions, ATP or otherwise. You will be in a much better position to make an informed decision on how to proceed from there.
ATP is not all entirely bad, if you already have some experience under your belt, and know what your getting into, they can be an effective means to an end. Just don't buy into all the flashy marketing and hype.
Here are the biggest problems with ATP that I experienced and witnessed:
1) Once they have your money, and your enrolled in the program management treats you like absolute garbage. You are now at their whim, and they call the shots, not you (the paying customer). Being forced to fly in unsafe weather conditions, being forced into taking check-rides you are unprepared for are standard operating procedures at ATP. Threatening and coercion are the norm. If you don't like it tough, just quit and they'll keep a large chunk of your unused deposit. I am still amazed that people put up with that sort of treatment after laying out $70,000+ to the company. DO NOT under-estimate this point.
If this is how they treat their paying customers, you don't even want to know how they treat their employees. Their "guaranteed" flight instructor job is the biggest scam of all. Again, I am absolutely amazed that people are willing to put up with the sort of treatment that ATP management is known to dole out.
2) The pace of the training is ludicrous. Can it be done? Sure, of course. Is it the best way to learn? in my opinion, absolutely not. There is a lot of merit in a full immersion to any type of training including flight training. However, 0 hours to multi-engine commercial pilot and flight instructor in 120 days? That is just too short of a time frame to learn anything beyond just the absolute bare minimum need to pass your check-rides (if your lucky the 1st time).
There is a huge consequence to this style of training that nobody at ATP will tell you. Because the time-frame is so condensed, you need to be extremely self-motivated to have any shot in getting through the program unscathed by multiple check-ride failures (that will be on your FAA record for the remainder of your career). This goes back to the whole management tactic of coercing you into taking check-rides that, at best, you are prepared to pass at only the very minimum standard, or at worst, not prepared to take at all. Need extra ground instruction from your instructor? forget about it. They're too busy flying with other students, and they don't get paid to give ground lessons. Need an extra hour or two in the airplane to be ready for a check-ride? After you get berated by management, they're going to charge you an exorbitant fee for going over the allotted time.
3) The quality of instruction overall is very sub-par. There is only one goal of ATP's instruction - teach the absolute bare minimum to pass your check-rides, get your certificates, and get-out. The reason for this is 1) the time constraints as discussed above and 2) ATP hires back its own graduates to instruct. So, your you're being taught by a guy/gal that has only been flying for 120 days, who was taught by another guy/gal who learned in 120 days, etc. etc. The depth of experience of the instructors is extremely shallow. Also, although most of the instructors are good people, they are motivated by one thing, and one thing only, to fill THEIR log-book with hours and get out ASAP. Most are there to bide their time, and have little to no motivation or intensive to be "instructors" in the true spirit of that word.
To give some perspective, I enrolled in ATP after already accumulating about 200 hours and a private instrument rating. I also spent 2+ years working as a flight instructor at more than one independent flight school (not at ATP), so I feel pretty confident in saying that I am speaking from a pretty wide and diverse perspective within the flight training industry. I absolutely agree with the advice to get your private certificate first, before making any other decisions, ATP or otherwise. You will be in a much better position to make an informed decision on how to proceed from there.
ATP is not all entirely bad, if you already have some experience under your belt, and know what your getting into, they can be an effective means to an end. Just don't buy into all the flashy marketing and hype.
Agreed with this 100%.
Go with a local, smaller school. Or go with American Flyers if you really want the big name school. Never hand over more than $1000 at a time if you can avoid it.
05-07-2015, 07:22 AM
#23
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 66
ATP was a good deal for me, but, as the other guy said, I was forced into taking 2 checkrides I wasn't prepared for with Ernie in CRG, busted them both, and their accelerated program was ALOT slower than advertised. 90 instead of 60 for private, much slower for everything else
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05-07-2015, 12:25 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,090
Originally Posted by Bpflyerone
ATP was a good deal for me, but, as the other guy said, I was forced into taking 2 checkrides I wasn't prepared for with Ernie in CRG, busted them both, and their accelerated program was ALOT slower than advertised. 90 instead of 60 for private, much slower for everything else
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05-09-2015, 03:56 AM
#25
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Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Bpflyerone
ATP was a good deal for me, but, as the other guy said, I was forced into taking 2 checkrides I wasn't prepared for with Ernie in CRG, busted them both, and their accelerated program was ALOT slower than advertised. 90 instead of 60 for private, much slower for everything else
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05-11-2015, 11:05 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 132
Originally Posted by SMACFUM
Ughhhh. I cringe when I hear things like that. How long ago was this? Is Erine still up to his old ways of terrorizing applicants during his check rides?
The only person worse was the inventor of aviation himself (Rich Tillery) AKA George Bush look-a-like.
05-12-2015, 04:04 AM
#27
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Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by Bpflyerone
ATP was a good deal for me, but, as the other guy said, I was forced into taking 2 checkrides I wasn't prepared for with Ernie in CRG, busted them both, and their accelerated program was ALOT slower than advertised. 90 instead of 60 for private, much slower for everything else
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I've just "finished" the ATP program. I really have no complaints about the school at all and no animosity towards them. They sent me to Stands without my CFII and wanted me to take it up there with Ernie. Unfortunately I was already signed off by my instructor where I trained, so nearly immediately they wanted me to take my checkride.
I took my checkride with Ernie and realized the instructor that signed me off (who was just 3 or 4 weeks out of stands himself) had not prepared me nearly well enough for a checkride with Ernie. Needless to say, I failed.
So I told them I was not going to take that checkride until i was 100% positive that I was going to pass. 3 weeks passed and I still didn't feel 100% on my knowledge or flying (cause itd been a while since id flown now) but my instructors were so adamant that I was ready and I was definitely going to pass. I didn't feel comfortable at all. I felt like they were forcing me. Because of this, I had to resign my position as a CFI with the company and I went home without my CFII.
This was about 2 weeks ago. Part of the reason I didn't feel comfortable going into the checkride was because it was with Ernie. The way he treats you and talk to you in the oral is part of the reason I failed. He made me second guess and question everything to the point where I completely went blank. And despite how much I knew, I didn't feel comfortable rechecking with him because I know when people yell at me or pressure me I completely lose everything that was once floating around up in my head.
05-12-2015, 05:12 AM
#28
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Joined APC: Jul 2012
Posts: 352
Alex Blake - if you are looking for employment as a CFI, you might consider US Aviation Academy. I can give you the recruiter's contact info if you want.
05-12-2015, 06:16 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by k1600gt
I am 39 years old and looking to transition to a career in aviation. I'll be retired military soon. I have been leaning towards ATP Flight School mostly because they are the name I see most often and the airline partnerships. I have read many of the posts about them and see good and bad reviews but most of them are from several years ago.
I am particularly interested in recent graduates and current student's experience with ATP.
I am also very interested in the opinion of Captains who have flown with recent graduates and their opinion of the pilots that come out of ATP's training program.
I am considering the Long Beach CA location. Does anyone have experience with them?
I am particularly interested in recent graduates and current student's experience with ATP.
I am also very interested in the opinion of Captains who have flown with recent graduates and their opinion of the pilots that come out of ATP's training program.
I am considering the Long Beach CA location. Does anyone have experience with them?
You can still go to a fast track program and use your GI Bill if you still have the Montgomery, there are plenty of VA approved ones out there. If you converted to Post 9/11, your best bet is to get your ratings with a 2-year degree, that way everything is 100% paid for.
I for instance already had a Bachelors degree before entering the service but I still signed up for the GI bill when I entered, while in I was fortunate enough to get sent to school to get my Masters. I took early retirement (TERA) and converted to post 9/11 to get my ratings along with a 2-year degree (even though I don't need another degree) because the deal was just too good to pass up.
That would be my advice, that is if you are still eligible.
05-13-2015, 02:22 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: Gear Slinger
Posts: 169
From someone who has trained with and now instructs at a great local flight school and who has also trained with ATP, here is my two cents:
If time is critical to you... i.e., getting into the cockpit of an RJ as fast as you can, then ATP is probably your best bet. The climate is good for up and coming pilots right now. For someone looking to make a career in the airlines, I would say do what you need to do to get in the right seat as quick as you can so that you can ride the front of the hiring wave and be protected from furloughs in the future.
That being said, there is no right or wrong answer as to which route you should take. Is ATP expensive? Absolutely. Can you do it for less? Absolutely. But that isn't what the company model is about and you need to know that going in. You are paying for the speed of the program and the fact that they will hire you and you will instruct for them, gain a lot of multi-time, and get to the regionals fast. If it is worth it to get there faster, then go for it.... If not, then go the FBO route.
In terms of the quality of training, don't listen to people that haven't attented the program (or even some that have but didn't put the effort in and failed as a result). Training is fully dependant on two things: Your own work ethic and the effort of your instructor. There are bad instructors everywhere.... local FBO's and ATP included. That doesn't mean every ATP instructor only cares about getting to 1500 and as a result provides poor instruction. I have read all the horror stories about ATP... "they only train to pass a checkride; you'll get no ground instruction etc etc etc..." I attended ATP at the Richmond, VA location and finished the career program in 10/2013 (self-paced). I honestly believe I couldn't have received better instruction. My instructor went way out of his way to provide a lot of ground instruction, both individual and in a class settings. The other two instructors at the RIC location do the same. I have a full blog detailing my experience on JC if you want a day-to-day (New ATP Student KRIC/Running Experience... | Jetcareers). If you want insight into the program, it would be a good resource. The instructor I had for my private in 2010 at my local FBO is also very good... But I believe the instruction I received at ATP was better. As a result, I had zero checkride failures. Also, take into consideration that I did my CFI initial with an FAA Inspector, not a DPE. CFI Initials with the FAA run about a 70-80% failure rate. I was prepared because of my hard work ethic and because I had a great instructor.
Will this be the case with all ATP instructors? Of course not. There are instructors within ATP who won't do as good of a job. But remember, you are the customer. If you are having a issue with the instruction you are receiving, immediately request a change in instructors. You're paying a lot of money for this (either way you do it). If its not working, fix it. Same goes for any FBO/small flight school.
I'm not cheerleading for ATP... I do not instruct for them. I instruct for a large flight school in Northern Virginia and make pretty good money here. It is a great 141 school with several university programs. Instructing for ATP after you complete the program will get you hours at a good rate (depending on your assigned location), but you will make poverty wages. I would look for a company that has high volume business but pays a decent wage once you have your CFI ratings. If you can't find one that works for you, then you have ATP (if you choose to go through ATP).
Bottom line is that you have to figure out what is best for you. But don't let anyone talk you into or out of either scenario. Neither are wrong. You have to decide which is better for you. Hopefully this helps a bit. Either way... DO IT if its your dream. I'm two months away from the airlines and can't wait! Good Luck.
Mike
If time is critical to you... i.e., getting into the cockpit of an RJ as fast as you can, then ATP is probably your best bet. The climate is good for up and coming pilots right now. For someone looking to make a career in the airlines, I would say do what you need to do to get in the right seat as quick as you can so that you can ride the front of the hiring wave and be protected from furloughs in the future.
That being said, there is no right or wrong answer as to which route you should take. Is ATP expensive? Absolutely. Can you do it for less? Absolutely. But that isn't what the company model is about and you need to know that going in. You are paying for the speed of the program and the fact that they will hire you and you will instruct for them, gain a lot of multi-time, and get to the regionals fast. If it is worth it to get there faster, then go for it.... If not, then go the FBO route.
In terms of the quality of training, don't listen to people that haven't attented the program (or even some that have but didn't put the effort in and failed as a result). Training is fully dependant on two things: Your own work ethic and the effort of your instructor. There are bad instructors everywhere.... local FBO's and ATP included. That doesn't mean every ATP instructor only cares about getting to 1500 and as a result provides poor instruction. I have read all the horror stories about ATP... "they only train to pass a checkride; you'll get no ground instruction etc etc etc..." I attended ATP at the Richmond, VA location and finished the career program in 10/2013 (self-paced). I honestly believe I couldn't have received better instruction. My instructor went way out of his way to provide a lot of ground instruction, both individual and in a class settings. The other two instructors at the RIC location do the same. I have a full blog detailing my experience on JC if you want a day-to-day (New ATP Student KRIC/Running Experience... | Jetcareers). If you want insight into the program, it would be a good resource. The instructor I had for my private in 2010 at my local FBO is also very good... But I believe the instruction I received at ATP was better. As a result, I had zero checkride failures. Also, take into consideration that I did my CFI initial with an FAA Inspector, not a DPE. CFI Initials with the FAA run about a 70-80% failure rate. I was prepared because of my hard work ethic and because I had a great instructor.
Will this be the case with all ATP instructors? Of course not. There are instructors within ATP who won't do as good of a job. But remember, you are the customer. If you are having a issue with the instruction you are receiving, immediately request a change in instructors. You're paying a lot of money for this (either way you do it). If its not working, fix it. Same goes for any FBO/small flight school.
I'm not cheerleading for ATP... I do not instruct for them. I instruct for a large flight school in Northern Virginia and make pretty good money here. It is a great 141 school with several university programs. Instructing for ATP after you complete the program will get you hours at a good rate (depending on your assigned location), but you will make poverty wages. I would look for a company that has high volume business but pays a decent wage once you have your CFI ratings. If you can't find one that works for you, then you have ATP (if you choose to go through ATP).
Bottom line is that you have to figure out what is best for you. But don't let anyone talk you into or out of either scenario. Neither are wrong. You have to decide which is better for you. Hopefully this helps a bit. Either way... DO IT if its your dream. I'm two months away from the airlines and can't wait! Good Luck.
Mike
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