SIC vs Student Time
05-31-2015, 12:41 PM
#1
No Weekends For You!!
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 186
SIC vs Student Time
KC-135 Pilot
After graduating USAF SUPT, and before the instrument qual (Form 8) in the Tanker, are you logging "student" time, even though you have your wings proudly affixed to your chest? Or would you consider your initial Altus flights SIC time?
Hopefully this question isn't too vague
After graduating USAF SUPT, and before the instrument qual (Form 8) in the Tanker, are you logging "student" time, even though you have your wings proudly affixed to your chest? Or would you consider your initial Altus flights SIC time?
Hopefully this question isn't too vague
05-31-2015, 06:21 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: CFI/II/MEI
Posts: 481
Originally Posted by JerkStore
KC-135 Pilot
After graduating USAF SUPT, and before the instrument qual (Form 8) in the Tanker, are you logging "student" time, even though you have your wings proudly affixed to your chest? Or would you consider your initial Altus flights SIC time?
Hopefully this question isn't too vague
After graduating USAF SUPT, and before the instrument qual (Form 8) in the Tanker, are you logging "student" time, even though you have your wings proudly affixed to your chest? Or would you consider your initial Altus flights SIC time?
Hopefully this question isn't too vague
As a disclaimer, I'm not very familiar with military training, so it may not apply, but look it up in the regs.
06-01-2015, 03:26 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 642
Bellanca,
Check the thread about logging Multi-time because it may pertain to your situation vis-a-vis FAA regs about logging time. What we figured out is when your sole manipulator of the Jet you can log PIC (Primary time). I flew 141's and C-17's and even as a brand new guy, we usually split the total time between the pilots and everybody got some primary some secondary time. I understand as a STUD you may think there could be an issue logging Primary time. Your best solution is ask your IP how he's logging your time. My guess is if you and another STUD are flying a 4 hr sortie, your IP is logging 2.0 for you, 2.0 for the other STUD, and he's logging 4.0 IP time..that was how we did it..
BTW, I never kept a log book in 28 years in the Air Force, believe it or not the Air Force did a good job logging my time. Of course after a few years in a 141, my time was never an issue....we flew a lot!
Check the thread about logging Multi-time because it may pertain to your situation vis-a-vis FAA regs about logging time. What we figured out is when your sole manipulator of the Jet you can log PIC (Primary time). I flew 141's and C-17's and even as a brand new guy, we usually split the total time between the pilots and everybody got some primary some secondary time. I understand as a STUD you may think there could be an issue logging Primary time. Your best solution is ask your IP how he's logging your time. My guess is if you and another STUD are flying a 4 hr sortie, your IP is logging 2.0 for you, 2.0 for the other STUD, and he's logging 4.0 IP time..that was how we did it..
BTW, I never kept a log book in 28 years in the Air Force, believe it or not the Air Force did a good job logging my time. Of course after a few years in a 141, my time was never an issue....we flew a lot!
06-01-2015, 11:01 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Thanks for the inputs this far! I'm asking because Airline Apps wants student time broken down by aircraft now. I'm trying to figure out if I should list my 20 hours in the Tanker at Altus as "student" time. The way I see it: If I am a member of a two (pilot) person crew, and the IP ate the fish for lunch, then I, as SIC, must save the day. What say you?
06-01-2015, 01:10 PM
#6
No Weekends For You!!
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by hawgwild
I'm a tanker toad too,
I started logging SIC once I actually started flying the real jet. The way I see it, after my instrument check in the sim, I was qualified in the aircraft and could log SIC.
I started logging SIC once I actually started flying the real jet. The way I see it, after my instrument check in the sim, I was qualified in the aircraft and could log SIC.
06-01-2015, 09:27 PM
#7
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 19
If you look at your AFORMS printout (you should have done a records review as part of your gratuation tasks) from your flight records you will note that all UPT time is lumped together as "Student." That time will never change your entire career. Now that you're rated, all your time will go in as Primary, Secondary, Instructor, Evaluator, or other. BTW, the jump seat time in the T-1 went in the Student block. As far as AFORMS is concerned it was not real Other time.
If you're keeping a military style logbook (like the ones AAFES sells) then it has blocks for Primary, Secondary, etc. If you're keeping a FAA logbook, that can be a little tricky. If you have an ATP, then all time on the controls can be logged as PIC. Since you're most likely splitting hours, just keep it simple and mark Secondary time as SIC and the rest as PIC. Also, Other time does not exist to the FAA so there isn't much point in keeping track of it unless you want to make sure all the math works out. When I got out of USAF, I just took my AFORMS summary page to my job interview along with my most recent logbook.
If you're worried about post military employment, don't be. Depending on your future employer, each company may have specific instructions as to how to convert your military time.
To close up this long story, you are now rated and should not be logging any student time. If you want to keep track of training you should log Dual Received along with the appropriate PIC or SIC.
If you're keeping a military style logbook (like the ones AAFES sells) then it has blocks for Primary, Secondary, etc. If you're keeping a FAA logbook, that can be a little tricky. If you have an ATP, then all time on the controls can be logged as PIC. Since you're most likely splitting hours, just keep it simple and mark Secondary time as SIC and the rest as PIC. Also, Other time does not exist to the FAA so there isn't much point in keeping track of it unless you want to make sure all the math works out. When I got out of USAF, I just took my AFORMS summary page to my job interview along with my most recent logbook.
If you're worried about post military employment, don't be. Depending on your future employer, each company may have specific instructions as to how to convert your military time.
To close up this long story, you are now rated and should not be logging any student time. If you want to keep track of training you should log Dual Received along with the appropriate PIC or SIC.
06-02-2015, 08:31 AM
#8
No Weekends For You!!
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Joined APC: Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by SetClimbPower
If you look at your AFORMS printout (you should have done a records review as part of your gratuation tasks) from your flight records you will note that all UPT time is lumped together as "Student." That time will never change your entire career. Now that you're rated, all your time will go in as Primary, Secondary, Instructor, Evaluator, or other. BTW, the jump seat time in the T-1 went in the Student block. As far as AFORMS is concerned it was not real Other time.
If you're keeping a military style logbook (like the ones AAFES sells) then it has blocks for Primary, Secondary, etc. If you're keeping a FAA logbook, that can be a little tricky. If you have an ATP, then all time on the controls can be logged as PIC. Since you're most likely splitting hours, just keep it simple and mark Secondary time as SIC and the rest as PIC. Also, Other time does not exist to the FAA so there isn't much point in keeping track of it unless you want to make sure all the math works out. When I got out of USAF, I just took my AFORMS summary page to my job interview along with my most recent logbook.
If you're worried about post military employment, don't be. Depending on your future employer, each company may have specific instructions as to how to convert your military time.
To close up this long story, you are now rated and should not be logging any student time. If you want to keep track of training you should log Dual Received along with the appropriate PIC or SIC.
If you're keeping a military style logbook (like the ones AAFES sells) then it has blocks for Primary, Secondary, etc. If you're keeping a FAA logbook, that can be a little tricky. If you have an ATP, then all time on the controls can be logged as PIC. Since you're most likely splitting hours, just keep it simple and mark Secondary time as SIC and the rest as PIC. Also, Other time does not exist to the FAA so there isn't much point in keeping track of it unless you want to make sure all the math works out. When I got out of USAF, I just took my AFORMS summary page to my job interview along with my most recent logbook.
If you're worried about post military employment, don't be. Depending on your future employer, each company may have specific instructions as to how to convert your military time.
To close up this long story, you are now rated and should not be logging any student time. If you want to keep track of training you should log Dual Received along with the appropriate PIC or SIC.
06-07-2015, 03:15 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Apr 2015
Position: AA TBD
Posts: 64
Fellow tanker guy here as well and I'm the middle of reconciling ARMS with my logbook with airlineapps. I listed all T-37 & T-1 time as dual (even the solos). My tanker time was dual while I was a 'UC', then SIC after my initial copilot check. I listed my 'UP' time at AC upgrade and 'MP' time at CFIC as SIC. Any other subsequent time as an FP or flying with an IP I listed as SIC.
While student time is lumped together, realize you have a number of sorties that can be counted as part of your total number of sorties.
FWIW, I plan on having a cover letter to go with my logbook to explain anomalies. For example, I got to fly right-seat in a C-17 as an Altus IP but ARMS has it all as 'other' since I was an 'XP' but logged I it as dual.
While student time is lumped together, realize you have a number of sorties that can be counted as part of your total number of sorties.
FWIW, I plan on having a cover letter to go with my logbook to explain anomalies. For example, I got to fly right-seat in a C-17 as an Altus IP but ARMS has it all as 'other' since I was an 'XP' but logged I it as dual.
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