When paying, what constitutes "ground?"
01-27-2007, 10:16 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 39
Mike in TX,
You should listen to these guys. I tried to be fair when I was charging students, and I generally used the same guidelines listed by 'Rickair7777.'
If your CFI sucks, fire him. Do not hesitate. But remember this, if you find one that you think does a great job of providing flight instruction, goes above and beyond, really cares about your progress, etc., then you should consider overlooking the occasional 0.2 on your bill (he may be doing something you're not aware of--give him the benefit of doubt), and you may even want to tip him once in a while. Great instructors are worth their weight in gold, and trust me, most instructors make crap for income.
You should listen to these guys. I tried to be fair when I was charging students, and I generally used the same guidelines listed by 'Rickair7777.'
If your CFI sucks, fire him. Do not hesitate. But remember this, if you find one that you think does a great job of providing flight instruction, goes above and beyond, really cares about your progress, etc., then you should consider overlooking the occasional 0.2 on your bill (he may be doing something you're not aware of--give him the benefit of doubt), and you may even want to tip him once in a while. Great instructors are worth their weight in gold, and trust me, most instructors make crap for income.
01-27-2007, 03:24 PM
#12
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Flight instruction: Instruction in the air
Ground Instruction: Anytime he's doing paperwork or working with you on the ground.
Pre/Post instruction:I still haven't figured out what this is but the airforce lets me charge them 17hrs per student for it anyway.
Ground Instruction: Anytime he's doing paperwork or working with you on the ground.
Pre/Post instruction:I still haven't figured out what this is but the airforce lets me charge them 17hrs per student for it anyway.
01-28-2007, 09:36 AM
#13
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by rickair7777
To address the original issue...
When I was an instructor, we charged for ground time (some instructors don't and I do not agree with that...same as airline pilots not getting paid for ground duty time ala mesa).
Basically if I was actually DOING something that required my license and/or expertise, I charged. Only one student had an issue with this, he came from an FBO environment where the cfi charged for flight time only...I asked him why he had left his previous instructor, he said the job wasn't getting done. After I explained that I would get the job done, he was OK with my billing policy
Addressing all the OTHER issues: Your instructor sounds like the bad-stereotype CFI...drop him like a hot potato!
When I was an instructor, we charged for ground time (some instructors don't and I do not agree with that...same as airline pilots not getting paid for ground duty time ala mesa).
Basically if I was actually DOING something that required my license and/or expertise, I charged. Only one student had an issue with this, he came from an FBO environment where the cfi charged for flight time only...I asked him why he had left his previous instructor, he said the job wasn't getting done. After I explained that I would get the job done, he was OK with my billing policy
Addressing all the OTHER issues: Your instructor sounds like the bad-stereotype CFI...drop him like a hot potato!
Originally Posted by FlyerJosh
Here's a tip for any CFIs out there... I told my students up front how I was charging them, and when I was on the clock. I told them that if they ever felt that I was taking them for a ride or overcharging, to immediately bring it to my attention. I never had any of the 65+ students say a word about it. Be honest, open, and upfront about it and you can prevent a lot of heartburn later.
If you are unhappy with your instructor or you feel like his attitude doesn't fit your expectations or needs, feel free to drop him in a heartbeat. Remember- when that coveted regional job comes along, he won't hesitate to do the same to you...
Being a pro, I told them what constituted ground time, and if they were the ones late, I'd give them 15 min to contact me, and up to 30 min before I started charging. You gotta remember they took up a flight slot, time you could've been making money if they didn't back out. But, with that said, it's such a touchy area anyways!
On to your instructor. Many people don't pick to instruct, but you have to build hours somehow, so it's basically an "anyone can do it, and you need hours" type of job. Unfortunately, those who lack motivation for whatever reason, also tend to have higher time students, with lower pass rates. The other unfortunate thing is that teaching is a hard thing to do, and some people can't teach, but yet our industry practically forces us into that realm.
Hopefully you get the problem resolved. I would talk to them 1-on-1 first, and see if they are even willing. Then if he charges you for that talk, then you know what you need to do. Good Luck!!!!!
02-04-2007, 11:39 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 275
I only have about 300 dual given because I am still going to school and was only able to use my certificate last summer (and plan to teach again next summer).
Simply the act of showing you care about their money they are investing is usually enough. If the clouds are low and we wont be able to get many maneuvers done, and that is what the student needs to work on, then I'll say "I don't think a flight today will be very productive, but its your choice if you'd like to fly or not."
If you put yourself in the students shoes, and ask yourself, is this flight or ground session worth their time and money - then you are golden. You may loose a few dollars initially; however, in the long run - they will tell their friends how "great" of an instructor you are, and your students will surely come back to you for their instrument rating. So you will get more flight time and income in the long run, not to mention the additional respect and happy students you earn.
There has only been one case where "me" trying to save someone money hurt me. I had a elderly guy come in who had just recently gotten back his medical and hadn't flown in a couple years. I took him up a couple times and he was doing great, the only thing he was having trouble with was VOR tracking.
So I decided to save money, I'd throw him in the sim, and work on VOR tracking there for the obvious financial benefits, and the ability to pause the sim and draw stuff on the white board.
Long story short, he got very very frustrated with the sim and called me and said he did not want to continue flight training with me. He said he would have much rather paid more money and did the VOR tracking in the air.
Lesson learned? Don't treat every student the same, cause they are not the same. This guy probably was not very computer illiterate, and I never asked him straight up if he'd rather do the VOR practice in the sim or in the air.
As for ground, I charge similar to Rick - I tell my students that ground doesn't always mean we are sitting in front of each other talking about aviation ground subjects, but time I wait for them to pre-flight (if they did not show up early and pre-flight, and the aircraft was available), sign logbooks and etc.
I tell them ways they can save money:
Take the online practice tests
I ask them questions from the chapter they were supposed to study, if they answer them correctly then we can pretty much skip through that and move onto new material.
and the usual, fly often, make sure you have enough money before you start, and sit in the airplane or a chair and "pretend you are flying." (chair flying)
Good input everyone
Simply the act of showing you care about their money they are investing is usually enough. If the clouds are low and we wont be able to get many maneuvers done, and that is what the student needs to work on, then I'll say "I don't think a flight today will be very productive, but its your choice if you'd like to fly or not."
If you put yourself in the students shoes, and ask yourself, is this flight or ground session worth their time and money - then you are golden. You may loose a few dollars initially; however, in the long run - they will tell their friends how "great" of an instructor you are, and your students will surely come back to you for their instrument rating. So you will get more flight time and income in the long run, not to mention the additional respect and happy students you earn.
There has only been one case where "me" trying to save someone money hurt me. I had a elderly guy come in who had just recently gotten back his medical and hadn't flown in a couple years. I took him up a couple times and he was doing great, the only thing he was having trouble with was VOR tracking.
So I decided to save money, I'd throw him in the sim, and work on VOR tracking there for the obvious financial benefits, and the ability to pause the sim and draw stuff on the white board.
Long story short, he got very very frustrated with the sim and called me and said he did not want to continue flight training with me. He said he would have much rather paid more money and did the VOR tracking in the air.
Lesson learned? Don't treat every student the same, cause they are not the same. This guy probably was not very computer illiterate, and I never asked him straight up if he'd rather do the VOR practice in the sim or in the air.
As for ground, I charge similar to Rick - I tell my students that ground doesn't always mean we are sitting in front of each other talking about aviation ground subjects, but time I wait for them to pre-flight (if they did not show up early and pre-flight, and the aircraft was available), sign logbooks and etc.
I tell them ways they can save money:
Take the online practice tests
I ask them questions from the chapter they were supposed to study, if they answer them correctly then we can pretty much skip through that and move onto new material.
and the usual, fly often, make sure you have enough money before you start, and sit in the airplane or a chair and "pretend you are flying." (chair flying)
Good input everyone
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