MikeInTx

Hello, let me briefly give you some info:

Today, I went for a 1.6 hour flight. My instructor was late meeting me due to a previous flight, but that was no fault of his, but rather due to a miscommunication between us.

So I pre-flighted the 172, and sat in the plane and waited for my instructor. He arrived, we left class Charlie airspace, worked on maneuvers and t.o./landings at an uncontrolled field, then returned to the school. He exited the plane, then went inside the building.

I returned the plane to its parking slip, tied her down, and went inside. I opened up my logbook, he filled it out and signed it, and then handed me the billing information because he had another student waiting.

Under the section designated "ground," he had entered 0.2 hours.

I objected, and he explained that "grabbing the bag and clipboard, doing the paperwork, signing my logbook, telling me that it was a great flight, and offering to help me put the plane back" constituted "ground" for billing purposes.

Is he right, or is this guy full of it?

(he ended up scratching out the 0.2 and putting 0.0)

LAfrequentflyer

He's not full of it...That's one of the many ways FBO / CFIs milk their students out of money.

I finished my PPL at an FBO and ended up paying 9.5K for the thing with only 65 hours logged to show for that high a price.

-LAFF

MikeInTx

So is he justified in charging me that money?

Is he adhering to the school's policy?

Do I have a right to object and not pay?

LAfrequentflyer

You are the customer - if you didn't rcv ground I wouldn't pay. I never did and I told my CFI - we brief / post-brief on the taxi. I will do the reading and take practice tests and send you the grades, after 10 practice tests for PPL written with over 90% score you sign off and I go take it. Those were my rules as the customer. It worked out well.

Remember the school only pays him a fraction of what they charge you. Thats why its in his interest to drag things out - he gets flight hours and money on your hard earned dime.

If you let him and the FBO abuse you then 'yes' he is justified.


-LAFF

MikeInTx

I've got other issues with this instructor:

*He has repeatedly bashed another one of his students in front of me, even using the guy's first and last name.

*My instructor just got his multi-engine instructor's permit, and has said that he "now enjoys instructing again."

*He is constantly talking about himself and the "better, faster" planes that he flies in.

*He is always talking about moving on to Regionals - he doesn't seem the least bit interested in seeing me succeed.

*He is overly cocky, arrogant, and full of himself (he's 24, I'm 29).

Should I just dump the guy? I know of another instructor there that I would rather have teach me...I just don't want things to be awkward at the FBO...

Any advice LAFF?

LAfrequentflyer

You have to do what is right for you. I would get a new CFI. However, I'm not you.

Good luck in your career / life.

-LAFF

rickair7777

To address the original issue...

When I was an instructor, we charged for ground time (some instructors don't and I do not agree with that...same as airline pilots not getting paid for ground duty time ala mesa).

In the interest of being fair, I was pretty conscientious about what I charged for. I charged for all this stuff:
1) Preflight, ONLY if I participated (student pilot)
2) Briefing, Wx, Flight plans review and filing.
3) Logbooks, endorsements, and 8710's (if you don't want to pay a licensed professional to do your paperwork, just get your mom to do it instead)
4) Time the student spends on his cell-phone.
5) Billing issues (141 school, lots of paperwork)
6) Any legit classroom training. However, if class is in session, and you want to shoot the breeze, you still get charged.

I did not charge for:
1) Preflight done by student.
2) Me getting coffee.
3) Wasted time that was the company's fault (mx, etc)
4) Wasted time due to Wx.
5) Breaks on cross-country flights (the student traditionally buys dinner and beer anyway).

Basically if I was actually DOING something that required my license and/or expertise, I charged. Only one student had an issue with this, he came from an FBO environment where the cfi charged for flight time only...I asked him why he had left his previous instructor, he said the job wasn't getting done. After I explained that I would get the job done, he was OK with my billing policy



Addressing all the OTHER issues: Your instructor sounds like the bad-stereotype CFI...drop him like a hot potato!

LAfrequentflyer

Thats a fair method of charging a student. Many don't do this. You have integrity,

-LAFF

FlyerJosh

Rick is right on. I did the same thing and it was rare that a student was charged less than .4 ground for each lesson (10 minutes to prebrief, 10 minutes to debrief, and 5 minutes during the preflight- which I always did with the student, but catered to the specific level).

Here's a tip for any CFIs out there... I told my students up front how I was charging them, and when I was on the clock. I told them that if they ever felt that I was taking them for a ride or overcharging, to immediately bring it to my attention. I never had any of the 65+ students say a word about it. Be honest, open, and upfront about it and you can prevent a lot of heartburn later.

Mike, I would say that the 12 minutes might be a bit excessive for the "instructional time" on that particular flight, however since I wasn't there I really can't tell you.

If you are unhappy with your instructor or you feel like his attitude doesn't fit your expectations or needs, feel free to drop him in a heartbeat. Remember- when that coveted regional job comes along, he won't hesitate to do the same to you...

Pilotpip

Mike,

Rickair is spot-on. A flight instructor doing professional duties should be within their rights to charge for his/her services. However, this is a two-way street. Your flight instructor isn't being professional plain and simple. I'm building time just like 99%of flight instructors but I see no reason to treat this as a temporary thing. Do I talk about career aspirations? Sure, if my student asks. My students are paying good money for my expertise and guidance and they have every right to "fire" me at any time. This has yet to happen because of what I just stated. You're paying good money for your training, you should expect and deserve more.

It's amazing how fast some of these guys forget how bad it was just a couple years ago when nobody was hiring and you had to fight just to get a crappy CFI job. I've treated every job I've had from being a ramp rat to this as the highest point I'll achieve. Why? Because you never know who you'll meet along the way and you never know what next week may bring.