Reaching ATP mins as a 135 FO
#11
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 529
You want to log it as SIC but claim it to an examiner as PIC?
What does the regulation say? Read it?
Logging your experience as SIC while claiming it's actually PIC is ridiculous.
If you're going to claim it as PIC, then log it that way.
The notion of making multiple columns in the logbook to show "acting PIC" vs. "logging PIC" is also ridiculous.
You could wait until you'e qualified and assigned as PIC to begin logging PIC at your 135 operation. If you're in too big of a hurry and must absolutely run before you can walk, then log it as PIC while you're sole manipulator, go do your ATP, and race to the nearest regional in order to satiate that shiny jet syndrome.
Logging as SIC and telling an examiner that it's really PIC...no.
What does the regulation say? Read it?
Logging your experience as SIC while claiming it's actually PIC is ridiculous.
If you're going to claim it as PIC, then log it that way.
The notion of making multiple columns in the logbook to show "acting PIC" vs. "logging PIC" is also ridiculous.
You could wait until you'e qualified and assigned as PIC to begin logging PIC at your 135 operation. If you're in too big of a hurry and must absolutely run before you can walk, then log it as PIC while you're sole manipulator, go do your ATP, and race to the nearest regional in order to satiate that shiny jet syndrome.
Logging as SIC and telling an examiner that it's really PIC...no.
#12
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Practically the only aircraft being manufactured today are shiny jets, most available work is in transport category aircraft. I basically have no way to get my ATP without going to the regionals (unless I wanna shell out 8K more, no thanks). My company doesn't upgrade till 2000hrs , so I'm kinda in a bind. You even said it, the airline training departments may not look favorably but it's legal (lots of guys moving on from seaport, tradewind, boutique, mokulele, capeair etc). If I need to audit the book later to subtract SIC time for the ride, I will have all the information to make that simple, for now I'm segregating the kinds of PIC because in the future I'll want to calculate TPIC without the PIC time I used to meet ATP mins.
Amazing you didn't figure it out with your "searches to kalamazoo and your reading of all the FAA legal interpretations." At least you've got all the answers now.
God forbid you upgrade at 2,000 hours.
#13
That was the intent of the rule, to "bring back" the training for Airline Transport Pilots to, well, the airlines (or 142 training centers, of which their intent was to provide airline training). The whole "take a written test and go up in a Seminole" thing was not the intent of the Airline Transport Pilot certificate and the airlines are best equipped and knowledgeable to train you and test you on ATP certificates.
#14
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Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: Glorified bus driver.
Posts: 58
A couple buddies and I looked into this a ton last summer. We were copilots in the B1900 for a 135 doing scheduled air carriage. They both got hired at two separate regionals. The POI at one of them decided that his time as sole manipulator didn't count because he didn't have a type rating for the aircraft. If you don't have a type rating for an aircraft that requires it, you can not be PIC or "Performing the duties of PIC". He was 20 hrs short. He went and rented a 150 for a couple days and nicked it out.
The other guy specifically asked his new regional and they said it's fine.
You should be ok because you said you have a type rating for the aircraft. As long as it is not a SIC only type, you should be good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The other guy specifically asked his new regional and they said it's fine.
You should be ok because you said you have a type rating for the aircraft. As long as it is not a SIC only type, you should be good.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
It boggles the mind that people can be a professional in the industry and still not understand the regulation. It really is dirt simple
Yes: if you're sole manipulator, you may log PIC.
Yes: if you log PIC while not the acting PIC, it may be met with distain or disapproval at both Part 121 and 135 operations, as well as many Part 91 operations.
Yes: your sole manipulator time at the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated may be logged as pilot in command time, and used toward the requirements of a certificate or rating that requires pilot in command time.
Yes: "rated" means category and class (and where appropriate, type). In your case, Airplane category, single engine land class. If you hold this as a category/class rating on your pilot certificate, and you're sole manipulator, you can log it as PIC.
Having said this: if you're not qualified as PIC in the aircraft and are not PIC under Part 135, other employers may view your decision to log PIC in the aircraft as a negative.
A regional may not care; if you're a warm body and meet the minimums, and don't have orange antennas growing out of your head, you'll probably get hired. By the time you've buried your past experience under a logbook or two, nobody will notice or care what you did in the first few hours of your career.
There's no "smoking gun." Read the damn regulation. It's quite clear.
Yes: if you're sole manipulator, you may log PIC.
Yes: if you log PIC while not the acting PIC, it may be met with distain or disapproval at both Part 121 and 135 operations, as well as many Part 91 operations.
Yes: your sole manipulator time at the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated may be logged as pilot in command time, and used toward the requirements of a certificate or rating that requires pilot in command time.
Yes: "rated" means category and class (and where appropriate, type). In your case, Airplane category, single engine land class. If you hold this as a category/class rating on your pilot certificate, and you're sole manipulator, you can log it as PIC.
Having said this: if you're not qualified as PIC in the aircraft and are not PIC under Part 135, other employers may view your decision to log PIC in the aircraft as a negative.
A regional may not care; if you're a warm body and meet the minimums, and don't have orange antennas growing out of your head, you'll probably get hired. By the time you've buried your past experience under a logbook or two, nobody will notice or care what you did in the first few hours of your career.
There's no "smoking gun." Read the damn regulation. It's quite clear.
You can receive an ops spec that allows the use of the autopilot in lieu of SIC, but that is the exception, not the rule. It's similar to the question of when do you need to file an alternate. The answer is ALWAYS, except.....
#16
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Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: Glorified bus driver.
Posts: 58
Not only these, but Part 135 passenger carrying ops already REQUIRE an SIC, always. Single engine, multi-engine, Turbine, or piston doesn't matter.
You can receive an ops spec that allows the use of the autopilot in lieu of SIC, but that is the exception, not the rule. It's similar to the question of when do you need to file an alternate. The answer is ALWAYS, except.....
You can receive an ops spec that allows the use of the autopilot in lieu of SIC, but that is the exception, not the rule. It's similar to the question of when do you need to file an alternate. The answer is ALWAYS, except.....
If it's VFR only flying then no SIC required. Doesn't really apply in this situation but I thought I'd toss it out there.
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 529
The curious paragraph towards the end states:
"the new provision for logging PIC time [61.51(e)(1)(iv)] should not be confused with 61.159(a)(4) which permits a pilot to count second in command time toward the 250 hours of flight time required for the ATP certificate. Accordingly, if an SIC is not participating an an approved PIC training program in accordance with 61.51(e)(1)(iv), the time performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC must be logged as SIC time that may be relied up for meeting the requirement of 61.159(a)(4)"
(a)(4) is now (a)(5) btw.
Sounds like I don't need to log it as PIC because when I'm hand flying, taxiing, etc I believe that constitutes "performing the duties of a PIC" and I can keep it all as SIC in my logbook and still meet this requirement. Can someone chime in on this?
"Duties of PIC" is referred to in 61.51(e)(1)(iv) for what's required in the approved training program. But all it says in 61.159(a)(5) is "performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC", hence no approved training program required. Do I have this straight?
#18
It all went downhill when they changed the ATR from a rating on the Commercial certificate to a separate certificate. It should go back to that standard.
To the original poster, it won't matter in 20 years, nobody will care how you logged time in the right seat of a plane without a type rating and maybe even with a type. Then again, I gave up logging time 30 years ago and have had two jobs since. The last interview they didn't even ask for a logbook or total time.
GF
To the original poster, it won't matter in 20 years, nobody will care how you logged time in the right seat of a plane without a type rating and maybe even with a type. Then again, I gave up logging time 30 years ago and have had two jobs since. The last interview they didn't even ask for a logbook or total time.
GF
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