Spin Training
02-17-2007, 07:11 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,857
Originally Posted by jsfBoat
My best friend was on a progress check with the Chief Pilot of the school who was from what I heard, showing the correct way to do turns around a point, when he put the 152 into an inverted spin.
02-17-2007, 02:38 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: C-17 Everything
Posts: 113
Uh, yea, I think you got some bad info. From what I remember turns around a point were done below 1000' AGL. If you got into spin, let alone an inverted spin, you probably wouldn't recover. Does your best friend know what a spin is?
02-17-2007, 03:44 PM
#13
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by rickair7777
But your instructor is being COMPLETEY reasonable here...the FAA does not allow aerobatics (including spin training) without a parachute. Unless you have have parachutes and are trained to use them, it would be illegal. The parachutes also have to be certified and maintained according to the FAR's.
02-17-2007, 03:48 PM
#14
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,271
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
Really? Wow, I've always been under the assumption(yes, "ASSUME") that spins all together were exempt, but yes I understand they violate the +/- 30 pitch, 60+ bank rule. I've talked with many CFI's and never heard any of them ever mention having to get a chute for this. Guess this is definately a question to take to the FSDO for clarification in Spin Awareness training.
02-17-2007, 04:55 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
The Regs are a little vague on spins, 91.303 defines aerobatic flight as any that results in an abrupt change in pitch, bank or airspeed and states you need a 'chute but that's about it. AC61-57C outlines stall and spin training.
From AC61-67C:
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes
From AC61-67C:
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes
02-18-2007, 09:37 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
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Originally Posted by Pilotpip
The Regs are a little vague on spins, 91.303 defines aerobatic flight as any that results in an abrupt change in pitch, bank or airspeed and states you need a 'chute but that's about it. AC61-57C outlines stall and spin training.
From AC61-67C:
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes
From AC61-67C:
301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.
a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating.
b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training.
c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes
Wow...this seems to say that any CFI can give spin training to anyone at any time.
02-18-2007, 02:47 PM
#20
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by mike734
The time to learn how to get out of a spin and how to avoid them is NOT when you first experience one turning base to final. PRACTICE THEM NOW.
This is exactly why I teach it. I've seen many students cross-control the base-final because they over-shot. First I tell them if you over-shoot, accept the fact you did, and if you can safely return to final, continue, but otherwise go-around.
Then we go out on the next lesson and demonstrate what can happen. We set up the 5000ft imaginary pattern and do the same inputs. Of course I like to let them try the initial recovery. I guarantee you it'll put a strong mark in the back of their head you'll never see them do it again. Scared Straight is what I like to reference it to
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