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Old 02-15-2007, 07:18 PM   #1  
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Red face Spin Training

Is getting spin training a good idea? I'm frightened of spins, and hopefuly this would build my confidence? How did others get over spins. My CFI will not show me one, even though I'm a Commercial Student. I'm nervous about when I start working in my CFI, guess that is a common training routine? Any body know of a place in central jersey, or in bucks county PA? Heard that there was a good place, but couldn't find them through my leads.
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:35 PM   #2  
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Is getting spin training a good idea? I'm frightened of spins, and hopefuly this would build my confidence? How did others get over spins. My CFI will not show me one, even though I'm a Commercial Student. I'm nervous about when I start working in my CFI, guess that is a common training routine? Any body know of a place in central jersey, or in bucks county PA? Heard that there was a good place, but couldn't find them through my leads.
I'd suggest finding another instructor to go do spins with. They're definitely a good thing to experience, and a requirement if you want to get your own shiny instructor plastic one day.
Why won't your instructor do spins with you?
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:04 PM   #3  
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I went to a school that specialized in aerobatic instruction, and did my spin endorsement with a pilot who has competed in aerobatics for over 15 years. He showed me a lot of stuff, very calm manner, and i enjoyed it more than any fixed-wing flying I've ever done. You might think about an aerobatic school for that.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:08 PM   #4  
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There are only a few reasons an instructor might opt to not show you spins. It may be the type of aircraft you're flying. If you're training in a 172, your instructor probably knows that it doesn't spin all that well (you pretty much have to force it to spin). If you're training in a 150/152, and he still won't show you spins, I'd question his instructor ability (mainly his comfort in the aircraft). I think there are a few instructors out there who won't show students to spin simply because they don't want the students to get so comfortable that they go out and try it on solo's.

I've had students in the past who would, after countless demonstrations and explanations, refuse to fly with their feet actively on the rudders through stalls. To counter this I'd let them demo a power on stall and let them get into the inital stage of the spin where the wing drops, almost always left. After a while sitting there with my arms crossed, watching us hurdle toward the dirt, laughing hysterically as they flounder, I'd take the airplane and (as many of you know) do nothing and we'd come out of the spin. After a few times of this the students would always stay coordinated through the spin. I think there's value in teaching students to not fear spins but it needs to be taught at the right time. Teaching even a commercial student with 100-125 hours to "spin" is only a recipe for disaster. Everyone should know how to get out of spins but, should be taught that it's NOT a good idea to go out and do them just for the hell of it. There are very few if any students who really know all the aspects, (CG, power-on vs. power off, etc.) of a spin. Teaching students how to avoid spins is a much more effective teaching strategy than teaching it as a fun, wow your friends, type of thing.

After all this rambling, realize that your instructor probably doesn't want to teach you how to spin because maybe you're not ready to go out and perform them on your own safely.

In the Air Force we did spin training extensively in the Tweet. After 50 years and many testing the Air Force has a spin recovery maneuver that will recover from "any" spin. This recovery was so memorized and rote that a monkey could do it. Outside of a regimented training program, spinning is dangerous. We were prohibited from intentionally spinning while solo. But, if it did happen we could damn sure get out of it.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:37 PM   #5  
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I was once afraid of spins until I actually went and did them. I found them more exciting than scary afterwards. You should at least try it. I just wouldn't recommend doing what my instructor did and pull the plane inverted for one unless you really trust the instructor. I suppose a big key here is how much you trust your instructor.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:36 AM   #6  
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My instructor went with me and did spins prior to me starting solo cross-countries, we went out and he did 2 and had me do 5, each held to 3 complete rotations, this was in a Cessna 152. He showed them to me so if it ever happened I would be able to recognize and recover from it. I never had the temptation to do them on solo flights or after I got my private, unless I had an instructor there who was comfortable with doing them in the airplane. To this day I think it was worthwhile to learn, you end up not fearing spins, but rather respecting them. I am hoping to do some aerobatic training in the near future.

I have also done spins in a Cessna 172, but spinning in a 172 is fairly difficult since you have to force it, it does not spin easily, and you get maybe 2 rotations max out of it before it becomes a spiral.

If you can find an instructor who is comforatable doing spins, try to go with them for a spin lesson. It is well worth it, just be responsible and professional about it.
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:06 AM   #7  
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I would definitely find another instructor. I think that practicing spins is a great confidence builder. Good luck!
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:28 AM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limelight View Post
There are only a few reasons an instructor might opt to not show you spins. It may be the type of aircraft you're flying. If you're training in a 172, your instructor probably knows that it doesn't spin all that well (you pretty much have to force it to spin). If you're training in a 150/152, and he still won't show you spins, I'd question his instructor ability (mainly his comfort in the aircraft). I think there are a few instructors out there who won't show students to spin simply because they don't want the students to get so comfortable that they go out and try it on solo's.

I've had students in the past who would, after countless demonstrations and explanations, refuse to fly with their feet actively on the rudders through stalls. To counter this I'd let them demo a power on stall and let them get into the inital stage of the spin where the wing drops, almost always left. After a while sitting there with my arms crossed, watching us hurdle toward the dirt, laughing hysterically as they flounder, I'd take the airplane and (as many of you know) do nothing and we'd come out of the spin. After a few times of this the students would always stay coordinated through the spin. I think there's value in teaching students to not fear spins but it needs to be taught at the right time. Teaching even a commercial student with 100-125 hours to "spin" is only a recipe for disaster. Everyone should know how to get out of spins but, should be taught that it's NOT a good idea to go out and do them just for the hell of it. There are very few if any students who really know all the aspects, (CG, power-on vs. power off, etc.) of a spin. Teaching students how to avoid spins is a much more effective teaching strategy than teaching it as a fun, wow your friends, type of thing.

After all this rambling, realize that your instructor probably doesn't want to teach you how to spin because maybe you're not ready to go out and perform them on your own safely.

In the Air Force we did spin training extensively in the Tweet. After 50 years and many testing the Air Force has a spin recovery maneuver that will recover from "any" spin. This recovery was so memorized and rote that a monkey could do it. Outside of a regimented training program, spinning is dangerous. We were prohibited from intentionally spinning while solo. But, if it did happen we could damn sure get out of it.
Good post. BTW, I was terrified too... until I was forced to do them during CFI training (it's a requirement)... and when the plane started rotating I was like, "huh, this isn't that bad.. it's actually kind of fun." And I agree with all the people that said to practice spins with a safe, professional instructor that you are comfortable with. I actually had an aerobatic flight once (after I got my CFI), and the attitude and behavior of the instructor completely turned me off to aerobatic flying. He would just do all these maneuvers with not much explanation or effort to pace a first time aerobatic flyer. I just ended up being really scared the whole time... but with a better instructor it could've had the potential to be a fun, learning experience.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:33 AM   #9  
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Originally Posted by jsfBoat View Post
Is getting spin training a good idea? I'm frightened of spins, and hopefuly this would build my confidence? How did others get over spins. My CFI will not show me one, even though I'm a Commercial Student. I'm nervous about when I start working in my CFI, guess that is a common training routine? Any body know of a place in central jersey, or in bucks county PA? Heard that there was a good place, but couldn't find them through my leads.
It's a great idea, do some spins until they are a non-event.

But your instructor is being COMPLETEY reasonable here...the FAA does not allow aerobatics (including spin training) without a parachute. Unless you have have parachutes and are trained to use them, it would be illegal. The parachutes also have to be certified and maintained according to the FAR's.

There is however an exemption to the parachute rule...CFI applicants are required to receive spin training and may do so WITHOUT parachutes (this is a grandfather-type rule). There are some grey areas here...

1) Can a commercial (or private) student get spin training under this exemption if it is assumed that he will move on to CFI training? Probably, but who knows for sure? A normal CFI would be safer just following the leter of the law and defering the spin training until AFTER you finish the commercial.

2) A CFI who provides training for a CFI applicant must have two years experience as CFI (from date of initial CFI ticket issue). I can't recall if there is a requirement for a certain amount of dual-given but I think there is. If your CFI is fairly new, he may not qualify to provide instruction to a CFI applicant. The grey area here is that the CFI who signs off a CFI applicant MUST be a two-year cfi...however a non-two-year can provide loggable flight instruction to a cfi applicant during his training, he just can't do the sign off. Can a non-two-year provide spin training to a cfi applicant? I think so, but still kind of grey.

Your cfi is probably afraid of operating in TWO regulatory grey areas...I don't blame him a bit. Also, if he only did the minimum required spins during HIS cfi training, he probably feels unqualified to teach spins AND I AGREE WITH THIS!

I'd probably just wait until your CFI training. If you're not going to get the cfi, go find somebody who gives aerobatic instruction in a certified airplane.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:30 PM   #10  
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Thanks for all who replied. My best friend was on a progress check with the Chief Pilot of the school who was from what I heard, showing the correct way to do turns around a point, when he put the 152 into an inverted spin. The instructors don't want to do spin training until we go for our CFI.
I'm going to stick with my CFI, he's a good guy who knows his stuff, and is always holding me to a high standard. On top of that, he's not going any where. He's instructing as a second job.
Guess i'll just wait until I go for my CFI.
I learned quickly rudder correction after my instructor let me do stalls, when either the left or right wing would drop and end up almost perpinducular to the horizon. Took me only 6/7 times of this to teach me correct rudder coordination.
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