FAA to JAA ratings
06-01-2009, 09:58 PM
#21
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 17
Not necessarily true about needing a CRP5 flight computer. A Jepp. CR or equivalent works just as well. I'd argue better, because some of the Mach No. problems require an extra step with a CRP5 compared to a CR type. One trap with a CR is using the normal method of ignoring Effective TAS until drift is greater than 10 deg. Don't. Always adjust for Effective TAS, interpolating as necessary if drift is less than 10 degrees.
The CRP5 is notorious for not being a particularly accurate whiz wheel. The examiners answers have to allow for the accuracy of computing devices. It's so common in the UK because most instructors there have no experience with other whiz wheels. They use what their instructors used who, in turn used what their instructors used.
I did my UK ATPL using my CR5 (the smallest and therefore least accurate of the CR series) and had no problem, scoring highly in Nav. Of the people in my course around 8 or 10 of us were converting from an overseas licence (most of us with Australian or New Zealand CPLs or ATPLs) and all of us bar one used CRs (he used a Kane E6B ie no Mach scales, + Temp ratio tables & memorised formula for Mach No. calcs). Most were CR2s ie the 4" model). Without fail, our CRs always provided a tighter cluster of (correct) answer variability than the CRP used by the rest of the class. Both Oz & NZ exams are more similar to UK/JAR than FAA so maybe that's a factor.
My conversion was to the UK ATPL (last UK exams just prior to JAR implementation) so slightly different to current JAR requirements but would give you an idea of what's involved. At the time I held Australian & FAA ATPLs with ~ 3700 hrs TT, no type ratings & was a current multi & instrument instructor in Oz with quite a bit of charter (ie part 135) time in the outback and cities.
It took 14 exams studied via two full time courses (8 weeks each, timed to end in time for when the exams are held plus an extra 'Performance' exam. NO sit-on-demand in Europe!) for the two exam groupings, and flight training as required for the required two flight tests (initial issue of a professional licence and an instrument rating). The flight tests were done on the same day, same examiner, same flight, with the first half of the flight the CPL/ATPL licence and the 2nd half the IR). The tests must be done with a CAA examiner (equiv. to an FAA inspector). All up I did 9.5 hours from start of flying to end of flight tests.
Exemptions:
Because I held a *current* instrument rating I was exempt the radio practical test ie no sitting with an RT examiner testing my ability to use standard phraseology.
To avoid the exorbitant fees charged by the CAA for the initial issue of a UK Class 1 medical I went to the UK with a fresh Class 1 medical (from Oz) + an opthalmologist's (not optometrist!) report and a fresh chest X-ray. Otherwise I would have had to attend a full initial issue medical at the CAA's headquarters in Gatwick (the 'Belgrano'. Its namesake was sunk in the Falklands war. The current one is large, painted grey, full of bureaucracy & procedure and difficult to sway from course. How appropriate). Having all of those things meant I only had to go to the Belgrano's medical section to have my paperwork processed.
Differences now with JAR if you do it in the UK:
Varies with experience and with licences. Unless you're in the 'lots of experience on heavy jets' category it will typically mean that you'll have the 14 exams to do, a CPL flight test (no minimum training, just recommended by an instructor), an IR test (minimum 15 hours training), and an initial Class 1 medical at the Belgrano. I don't know if they still allow the foreign Class 1 medical short cut.
If going for a JAR ATPL then you will have to do the test in an aircraft that required two flight crew. If you don't already have 500 hours in a multicrew type then you will also have to do a Multi Crew Cooperation course (MCC) - an introduction to multi-crew concepts type of thing. No pass mark for the MCC just satisfactory attendance. Typically two weeks & a couple of thousand UK pounds.
The extra performance exam I had to do is now included within JAR's 14 exams so no longer required.
The best thing to read is the UK CAA's 'LASORS', downloadable from their website www.caa.gov.uk. LASORS is a publications that distils the current requirements into a single document. Also www.pprune.org has *heaps* of information. PPRuNe is a UK based bulletin board. Go to the 'Wannabe's' section for licencing & training info.
The CRP5 is notorious for not being a particularly accurate whiz wheel. The examiners answers have to allow for the accuracy of computing devices. It's so common in the UK because most instructors there have no experience with other whiz wheels. They use what their instructors used who, in turn used what their instructors used.
I did my UK ATPL using my CR5 (the smallest and therefore least accurate of the CR series) and had no problem, scoring highly in Nav. Of the people in my course around 8 or 10 of us were converting from an overseas licence (most of us with Australian or New Zealand CPLs or ATPLs) and all of us bar one used CRs (he used a Kane E6B ie no Mach scales, + Temp ratio tables & memorised formula for Mach No. calcs). Most were CR2s ie the 4" model). Without fail, our CRs always provided a tighter cluster of (correct) answer variability than the CRP used by the rest of the class. Both Oz & NZ exams are more similar to UK/JAR than FAA so maybe that's a factor.
My conversion was to the UK ATPL (last UK exams just prior to JAR implementation) so slightly different to current JAR requirements but would give you an idea of what's involved. At the time I held Australian & FAA ATPLs with ~ 3700 hrs TT, no type ratings & was a current multi & instrument instructor in Oz with quite a bit of charter (ie part 135) time in the outback and cities.
It took 14 exams studied via two full time courses (8 weeks each, timed to end in time for when the exams are held plus an extra 'Performance' exam. NO sit-on-demand in Europe!) for the two exam groupings, and flight training as required for the required two flight tests (initial issue of a professional licence and an instrument rating). The flight tests were done on the same day, same examiner, same flight, with the first half of the flight the CPL/ATPL licence and the 2nd half the IR). The tests must be done with a CAA examiner (equiv. to an FAA inspector). All up I did 9.5 hours from start of flying to end of flight tests.
Exemptions:
Because I held a *current* instrument rating I was exempt the radio practical test ie no sitting with an RT examiner testing my ability to use standard phraseology.
To avoid the exorbitant fees charged by the CAA for the initial issue of a UK Class 1 medical I went to the UK with a fresh Class 1 medical (from Oz) + an opthalmologist's (not optometrist!) report and a fresh chest X-ray. Otherwise I would have had to attend a full initial issue medical at the CAA's headquarters in Gatwick (the 'Belgrano'. Its namesake was sunk in the Falklands war. The current one is large, painted grey, full of bureaucracy & procedure and difficult to sway from course. How appropriate). Having all of those things meant I only had to go to the Belgrano's medical section to have my paperwork processed.
Differences now with JAR if you do it in the UK:
Varies with experience and with licences. Unless you're in the 'lots of experience on heavy jets' category it will typically mean that you'll have the 14 exams to do, a CPL flight test (no minimum training, just recommended by an instructor), an IR test (minimum 15 hours training), and an initial Class 1 medical at the Belgrano. I don't know if they still allow the foreign Class 1 medical short cut.
If going for a JAR ATPL then you will have to do the test in an aircraft that required two flight crew. If you don't already have 500 hours in a multicrew type then you will also have to do a Multi Crew Cooperation course (MCC) - an introduction to multi-crew concepts type of thing. No pass mark for the MCC just satisfactory attendance. Typically two weeks & a couple of thousand UK pounds.
The extra performance exam I had to do is now included within JAR's 14 exams so no longer required.
The best thing to read is the UK CAA's 'LASORS', downloadable from their website www.caa.gov.uk. LASORS is a publications that distils the current requirements into a single document. Also www.pprune.org has *heaps* of information. PPRuNe is a UK based bulletin board. Go to the 'Wannabe's' section for licencing & training info.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 06-01-2009 at 10:37 PM.
06-04-2009, 08:30 AM
#23
New Hire
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 3
I am in the process of getting a JAA ATPL. It definitely depends on how many hours, the weight of the aircraft in kg and if it was international ops or not. What I am doing is purchasing the books as a package along with the online help. For me, I look at this as a long term investment, like college, so I would like to have the books to refer to or keep in my library. Perhaps a bit old fashion but it works for me. If you're able to find an airline or company to hire you without the JAA license like the previous guys mentioned that is great, it's just really hard to find that.
The other thing is the medical. The UK will consider you as an initial 1st class which has a more restrictive vision requirement. Probably no big deal, but if you wear glasses, you should look at the exact requirement. I just found out today, however, that in Prague, Czech Republic, if you already have a 1st class med., they will issue a JAA and can waive some of the vision requirement for the initial. This is also assuming you have an ATP as well. They charge in crowns 3,650 which is about $275 plus you have to fly to Prague.
I notice a number of places want an EU passport, not just the right to work and live in the EU.
Finally, I think that there are cultural differences with pilots in Europe and you might feel a little uncomfortable, but again, this depends on you. I have married a European and live here so I have committed myself to the language and lifestyle. This of course is a personal thing and no one can tell you if you will like it or not. Just go with you hear, be honest with yourself and go for it. Good luck.
The other thing is the medical. The UK will consider you as an initial 1st class which has a more restrictive vision requirement. Probably no big deal, but if you wear glasses, you should look at the exact requirement. I just found out today, however, that in Prague, Czech Republic, if you already have a 1st class med., they will issue a JAA and can waive some of the vision requirement for the initial. This is also assuming you have an ATP as well. They charge in crowns 3,650 which is about $275 plus you have to fly to Prague.
I notice a number of places want an EU passport, not just the right to work and live in the EU.
Finally, I think that there are cultural differences with pilots in Europe and you might feel a little uncomfortable, but again, this depends on you. I have married a European and live here so I have committed myself to the language and lifestyle. This of course is a personal thing and no one can tell you if you will like it or not. Just go with you hear, be honest with yourself and go for it. Good luck.
06-04-2009, 07:27 PM
#24
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 6
This thread has been extremely helpful, as I have wanted to fly in another country for awhile. But, I still have a few questions:
1. Are there any European countries that don't require a JAA license?
2. Anybody know if South American countries require them as well? Or if there's a way to find out which countries require them and which ones accept FAA licenses? I've tried the ICAO website and it's difficult to search that info.
3. I speak Spanish. Would this help me at all in getting hired in Spain?
4. The message I'm getting from a lot of posts is that it is easier and cheaper to start the process after getting your ATP. Is this true? Is it worth it to start the process before that?
By the way, I appreciate the posts that address the differences in culture in other countries. It's so true, and we need to be open to and respectful of other cultures, especially if we are living in foreign countries (not that anyone here isn't).
Thanks!
1. Are there any European countries that don't require a JAA license?
2. Anybody know if South American countries require them as well? Or if there's a way to find out which countries require them and which ones accept FAA licenses? I've tried the ICAO website and it's difficult to search that info.
3. I speak Spanish. Would this help me at all in getting hired in Spain?
4. The message I'm getting from a lot of posts is that it is easier and cheaper to start the process after getting your ATP. Is this true? Is it worth it to start the process before that?
By the way, I appreciate the posts that address the differences in culture in other countries. It's so true, and we need to be open to and respectful of other cultures, especially if we are living in foreign countries (not that anyone here isn't).
Thanks!
06-04-2009, 10:21 PM
#25
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 17
1. JAA is not necessarily 'Europe' although the vast bulk of European countries are part of the JAA. Similarly, a country doesn't have to be part of Europe (or, more accurately, the European Union) to be a member of JAA eg Norway & Iceland.
You would have to compare a list of JAA members agains a list of EU members to find who in the EU is, or is not, a JAA participant.
Joint Aviation Authorities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia gives list of members.
Bear in mind that the JAA is on the way out to be replaced by the European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA). The key difference is that JAA sets standards which then should be implemented by each member's aviation regulatory authority. EASA, on the other hand, *is* the regulatory authority. Who knows how long that will take! Some aspects are already an EASA province, others are still under JAA.
2. Usually S. American countries accept FAA licences. You really need to contact the relevent country's aviation authority. Don't forget to ask about what other countries they accept if you don't like their answer. It's possible - albeit uncommon - that you could side-step a limitation by doing a 3rd country's licence first. That was a case for someone who wanted to convert from a JAR CPL with ATPL hours to an Australian ATPL. In that bloke's case a transition via an FAA ATP first would have made the whole process easier *and* resulted in the transferrence of more qualifications & privileges.
3. Probably, but not necessarily.
4. ATP --> ATP is usually easier. It really depends on your experience & qualifications AND each country's interpretation of JARs. For the UK download LASORs for information, as I wrote previously. Don't forget to explore other JAA members rules to look for a more favourable option. Not necessarily on credits granted but even just cost of the whole process. I was originally going to convert to an Irish ATPL (after submitting a logbook/experience/qualifications assessment) for the reduced number of exams I would have required but they required a test on a >12500 lb aircraft whereas the UK accepted any twin (but a ****load more exams). Of course JAA now requires a multi-crew type so that issue has become a bit moot.
You would have to compare a list of JAA members agains a list of EU members to find who in the EU is, or is not, a JAA participant.
Joint Aviation Authorities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia gives list of members.
Bear in mind that the JAA is on the way out to be replaced by the European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA). The key difference is that JAA sets standards which then should be implemented by each member's aviation regulatory authority. EASA, on the other hand, *is* the regulatory authority. Who knows how long that will take! Some aspects are already an EASA province, others are still under JAA.
2. Usually S. American countries accept FAA licences. You really need to contact the relevent country's aviation authority. Don't forget to ask about what other countries they accept if you don't like their answer. It's possible - albeit uncommon - that you could side-step a limitation by doing a 3rd country's licence first. That was a case for someone who wanted to convert from a JAR CPL with ATPL hours to an Australian ATPL. In that bloke's case a transition via an FAA ATP first would have made the whole process easier *and* resulted in the transferrence of more qualifications & privileges.
3. Probably, but not necessarily.
4. ATP --> ATP is usually easier. It really depends on your experience & qualifications AND each country's interpretation of JARs. For the UK download LASORs for information, as I wrote previously. Don't forget to explore other JAA members rules to look for a more favourable option. Not necessarily on credits granted but even just cost of the whole process. I was originally going to convert to an Irish ATPL (after submitting a logbook/experience/qualifications assessment) for the reduced number of exams I would have required but they required a test on a >12500 lb aircraft whereas the UK accepted any twin (but a ****load more exams). Of course JAA now requires a multi-crew type so that issue has become a bit moot.
07-07-2009, 07:12 PM
#26
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 13
I am planning on starting a Distance Learning JAA conversion course. Do you think European airlines would have much of a preference on which course I attend or just that I get the license? I am thinking of either Oxford Aviation or Naples Air Center. Thanks
07-11-2009, 07:09 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: I pilot
Posts: 2,049
Originally Posted by jamiestrat
I am planning on starting a Distance Learning JAA conversion course. Do you think European airlines would have much of a preference on which course I attend or just that I get the license? I am thinking of either Oxford Aviation or Naples Air Center. Thanks
You will have to do the flying part somewhere else like Bristol Flying Center but the students who use Bristol GS have high pass rates and high scores. They give you exactly the information you need to pass, no more, no less.
07-24-2009, 02:14 PM
#28
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1
I am a European and did my training in Florida as many others. After my FAA CPL ME I headed home for the conversion for the JAA CPL. What I had to do first was to do the written ATPL. I spend around 9 months reading by myself and did the exams. cost around 4000 Euros including books. Then the conversion flights minimum 10 hours pluss a skill test in the end to get the JAA ME CPL. Cost around 6000 Euros. I spend 11 months in total.
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