Air France 447
06-04-2009, 01:53 PM
#201
Snakes & Nape
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: B-767 Captain
Posts: 775
Wrong Aircraft System
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I am sure they would have caught that sometime before takeoff much less an EICAS caution staring them in the face for three hrs.
I also find it very hard to swallow that all three pitot tubes iced up and they just red lined the engines.
I also find it very hard to swallow that all three pitot tubes iced up and they just red lined the engines.
Maybe we should all just wait until more reliable information is available, although it appears that the black boxes may be near impossible to find. The self proclaimed experts on the A-330 and the weather in and near the Intertropical Convergence Zone serve no useful purpose to determining what really happened in this tragedy.
Perhaps the most ridiculous "explanation" was the "expert" on the Weather Channel on Wednesday evening (June 3rd) explaining how the weather associated with the ITCZ and the equatorial areas usually produced smaller, dryer thunderstorms than the latitudes in the U.S. and the inference was that weather in the ITCZ wasn't usually that bad. There is someone who has never flown through the area and really has no idea what he's talking about.
Gee whiz...I'm having another cold one.
G'Day Mates
06-04-2009, 01:59 PM
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by tequilatamm
I guess we won't know for at least awhile, but I'll bet Airbus will be doing some serious testing of the Pitot Tubes.
This ma be the same or similar article as above, about Pitot Tubes icing, but I thought I'd post it:
This ma be the same or similar article as above, about Pitot Tubes icing, but I thought I'd post it:
06-04-2009, 02:07 PM
#203
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer
The Airbus family of aircraft does not have an EICAS system like Boeing products have. The ECAM is similiar in concept but does not function in the same manner.
Maybe we should all just wait until more reliable information is available, although it appears that the black boxes may be near impossible to find. The self proclaimed experts on the A-330 and the weather in and near the Intertropical Convergence Zone serve no useful purpose to determining what really happened in this tragedy.
Perhaps the most ridiculous "explanation" was the "expert" on the Weather Channel on Wednesday evening (June 3rd) explaining how the weather associated with the ITCZ and the equatorial areas usually produced smaller, dryer thunderstorms than the latitudes in the U.S. and the inference was that weather in the ITCZ wasn't usually that bad. There is someone who has never flown through the area and really has no idea what he's talking about.
Gee whiz...I'm having another cold one.
G'Day Mates
Maybe we should all just wait until more reliable information is available, although it appears that the black boxes may be near impossible to find. The self proclaimed experts on the A-330 and the weather in and near the Intertropical Convergence Zone serve no useful purpose to determining what really happened in this tragedy.
Perhaps the most ridiculous "explanation" was the "expert" on the Weather Channel on Wednesday evening (June 3rd) explaining how the weather associated with the ITCZ and the equatorial areas usually produced smaller, dryer thunderstorms than the latitudes in the U.S. and the inference was that weather in the ITCZ wasn't usually that bad. There is someone who has never flown through the area and really has no idea what he's talking about.
Gee whiz...I'm having another cold one.
G'Day Mates
Good to know, and as I have said, I have never flown a french jet.
If you have, can you tell me, would a message pop up if this system was not powered?
06-04-2009, 02:57 PM
#204
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Rapid severe icing is certainly possible in thunderstorms. It's assinine and amateur for pro pilots on here to be conjecturing that they 'forgot' to turn on the pitot heat.
The real issue here would be rapid severe icing that would render useless the entire air data system. It's not just possible, it's happened to at least 2 Delta jets in the past 6 months or so.
The real issue here would be rapid severe icing that would render useless the entire air data system. It's not just possible, it's happened to at least 2 Delta jets in the past 6 months or so.
06-04-2009, 04:54 PM
#205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
...more pieces of the puzzle
I saw on French TV (TV5 Monde) a printout of the first page of ACARS messages. I understand there were several pages, with messages being sent for a total of four minutes, the last one being something like (I'm paraphrasing) CAB VERT CLB (rapid cabin altitude climb).
The very first message I saw was something like A/P OFF (either by the pilot, or by the aircraft), followed by something like FLAG ON F/O PFD, FLAG ON CAPT PFD, something about ALTN LAW, some DISAGREE message (I think attitude between the two), then an IRU (or similar) FAULT, then two or three IRU problems.
The last message on page 1 was something that sounded like RDR TVL OVR LMT.
I haven't been able to locate a copy on the internet, but if anyone does, I'd like to read it again.
A couple of comments:
1) I don't know how weather fits into the puzzle, i.e. whether turbulence caused a failing IRU to take a bow. It might be that it's not a causal factor at all, i.e. similar to the Qantas incident, but at a much worse time. Or it might be that there is a strong suspicion a lightning strike started disabling systems, and set things in motion.
2) It sounds like individual sytem error messages were leaked to the press (i.e. Overspeeds, or probe deicing off), who are running to their "experts" for any theory that fits that particular message. This is why we read in the press of various countries a) articles that said lightning was suspected, b) articles stating that icing was at fault, c) articles about stalling, d) articles about overspeed, etc.
3) I don't know where the probe icing issue fits into the sequence of events. It doesn't sound like rapid decompression or an explosion was the event that triggered the problem. Instead, it appears as though it was the tragic end result of the evolution. I also doubt the pilots caused the problem by turning the autopliot off and hand-flying poorly, or that the main issue was speed control.
4) A pilot can certainly come up with a story, maybe not the right story, just from page one. Not a happy story, obviously. The investigators probably have plausible working theories already, and the totality of the messages is probably fairly revealing. In a way, this is almost worse. Those data points will probably fuel several diverging opinions. It'll be very useful to get the black boxes to give more context, and fill in the blanks between ACARS transmissions and system failure reports.
5) I'm not surprised terrorism is being "ruled out" by the governments involved.
The very first message I saw was something like A/P OFF (either by the pilot, or by the aircraft), followed by something like FLAG ON F/O PFD, FLAG ON CAPT PFD, something about ALTN LAW, some DISAGREE message (I think attitude between the two), then an IRU (or similar) FAULT, then two or three IRU problems.
The last message on page 1 was something that sounded like RDR TVL OVR LMT.
I haven't been able to locate a copy on the internet, but if anyone does, I'd like to read it again.
A couple of comments:
1) I don't know how weather fits into the puzzle, i.e. whether turbulence caused a failing IRU to take a bow. It might be that it's not a causal factor at all, i.e. similar to the Qantas incident, but at a much worse time. Or it might be that there is a strong suspicion a lightning strike started disabling systems, and set things in motion.
2) It sounds like individual sytem error messages were leaked to the press (i.e. Overspeeds, or probe deicing off), who are running to their "experts" for any theory that fits that particular message. This is why we read in the press of various countries a) articles that said lightning was suspected, b) articles stating that icing was at fault, c) articles about stalling, d) articles about overspeed, etc.
3) I don't know where the probe icing issue fits into the sequence of events. It doesn't sound like rapid decompression or an explosion was the event that triggered the problem. Instead, it appears as though it was the tragic end result of the evolution. I also doubt the pilots caused the problem by turning the autopliot off and hand-flying poorly, or that the main issue was speed control.
4) A pilot can certainly come up with a story, maybe not the right story, just from page one. Not a happy story, obviously. The investigators probably have plausible working theories already, and the totality of the messages is probably fairly revealing. In a way, this is almost worse. Those data points will probably fuel several diverging opinions. It'll be very useful to get the black boxes to give more context, and fill in the blanks between ACARS transmissions and system failure reports.
5) I'm not surprised terrorism is being "ruled out" by the governments involved.
06-04-2009, 05:07 PM
#206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
I believe the theory is that an electrical malfunction may have cause the pitots to not be heated. Then to compensate for the faulty IAS the TAS was increased. The aircraft could be operated beyond designed airspeed limitations without redlining the engines. Especially if it was turbulent and the AS is increased well above TAPS.
06-04-2009, 05:23 PM
#207
Where's my Mai Tai?
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: fins to the left, fins to the right
Posts: 1,731
Since my int'l doesn't involve the ITCZ, here are some excerpts from guys who have flown through that area. Edited a little.
"When I flew 727's out of Saipan years ago we saw those "invisible" (to RADAR) boomers all the time, we used to call them cloud geysers, and you could visibly see them grow. In the daytime, no problem, as in the South Pacific they rarely hid in squawl lines. I've been head-on to them and they were often invisible to RADAR regardless of tilt or gain adjustments, but it was clear they'd ***** slap you if you blundered into them. Here, it's common to run across them on the SYD-CAN leg, as it's dark by the time you enter the equatorial areas, and the MD11 RADAR is pretty lame to begin with."
"I think that when they are building, they have vapor which is not real reliable as a radar reflective object. When they are mature and the moisture precipitates, they are more visible. At night the lightning can illuminate the cloud as long as you are outside the cloud, in the clear, to see it. If you fly into the cloud at FL350, and head towards the center of the cell which may be rising to FL600, then you are in trouble for a long transit."
and finally,
"***** and I were SYD-HKG one night and we blundered into one of these cloud geysers. There was nothing on the RADAR and it was a smooth, moonless night. All hell broke loose...as I recall ***** was just sitting down and next thing you know we went from mach .95 to stick shaker and 30 degree rolls with both mach and low speed buffet. And just as fast it was over, and I think **** ended up on the deck, white as sheets. Both coolers were completely emptied and there was crap everywhere. We wrote that pig up for an extreme turbulence encounter...and I always cringed flying that thing afterwards. We were lucky we didn't become aluminum showers that night."
"When I flew 727's out of Saipan years ago we saw those "invisible" (to RADAR) boomers all the time, we used to call them cloud geysers, and you could visibly see them grow. In the daytime, no problem, as in the South Pacific they rarely hid in squawl lines. I've been head-on to them and they were often invisible to RADAR regardless of tilt or gain adjustments, but it was clear they'd ***** slap you if you blundered into them. Here, it's common to run across them on the SYD-CAN leg, as it's dark by the time you enter the equatorial areas, and the MD11 RADAR is pretty lame to begin with."
"I think that when they are building, they have vapor which is not real reliable as a radar reflective object. When they are mature and the moisture precipitates, they are more visible. At night the lightning can illuminate the cloud as long as you are outside the cloud, in the clear, to see it. If you fly into the cloud at FL350, and head towards the center of the cell which may be rising to FL600, then you are in trouble for a long transit."
and finally,
"***** and I were SYD-HKG one night and we blundered into one of these cloud geysers. There was nothing on the RADAR and it was a smooth, moonless night. All hell broke loose...as I recall ***** was just sitting down and next thing you know we went from mach .95 to stick shaker and 30 degree rolls with both mach and low speed buffet. And just as fast it was over, and I think **** ended up on the deck, white as sheets. Both coolers were completely emptied and there was crap everywhere. We wrote that pig up for an extreme turbulence encounter...and I always cringed flying that thing afterwards. We were lucky we didn't become aluminum showers that night."
06-04-2009, 07:26 PM
#209
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Brazilian air force says debris was not from Air France crash - CNN.com
So apparently none of the wreckage they have found thus far is from the AF flight. I hope that's not true.
So apparently none of the wreckage they have found thus far is from the AF flight. I hope that's not true.
06-04-2009, 07:48 PM
#210
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: A320
Posts: 1,308
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Brazilian air force says debris was not from Air France crash - CNN.com
So apparently none of the wreckage they have found thus far is from the AF flight. I hope that's not true.
So apparently none of the wreckage they have found thus far is from the AF flight. I hope that's not true.
That is weird..........really changes everything. Kind of starting to sound like that show "Lost".
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