ExtendedDays

NJA isn't recession proof, and XO survived as well as others. Yes NJA will probably survive a recession, I think thats fair to say that most companies will survive a recession. I know I don't have to tell you, you lived through it, but a company surviving the recession is all well and good but your ability to survive a furlough is a whole other can of beans. If NJA furloughed the same amount of people it did in 2008, I am pretty sure you would be furloughed again. So is NJA being more survivable during a recession all that relevant? One might survive a furlough at another company because of movement. Of course we can't pick a company using a crystal ball to see how all this plays out but I don't think sitting at the bottom of a seniority list for a decade bodes well for job security during a recession, whether the company survives or not.

B727DRVR

At least NetJets furloughed (and recalled) in seniority order vs. terminating their pilots like many did during those dark days... You can learn a lot about a Company by the way they treat their employees when things turn South ...

ExtendedDays

Yep I won't argue with that. XO did pilots real dirty.

LLWS09R

I was under the impression that the Union required seniority layoffs and call back rights.

ExtendedDays

You are under the right impression.

B727DRVR

Exactly!! It worked perfectly as advertised.. A Contract can be as important when times are bad, as they are when times are good..

AirBear

The last recession was the worst since 1929. NJA had very liberal terms for owners to turn in their shares, and many used their shares as ATM's when their stocks lost so much value. NJA lost a lot of $$$ because the post-recession value of those shares was a lot less than what they had to pay the owners. Those contract terms have since been fixed. Will they furlough during a recession? Depending on the severity, probably. But where do you want to be when furloughs happen? At a non-union shop where you can be laid off by equipment, or "A-Teamer" status, or a union shop where it's strictly by seniority with recall rights?

ExtendedDays

I want to not be furloughed when furloughs happen (so does everyone) so that would be of big consideration when I choose a company. Is there growth? Is it aggressive growth that will aggressively reverse during a recession? Is there movement? Attrition? Where will my seniority be in 5 years? Nobody has a crystal ball and I hope nobody at NJA or anywhere else is ever furloughed again. It has been a while since I have asked my buddies still there how many people they have below them, but I think that if NJA furloughed half of what they did in 2008, it would put every single new hire since the last furlough, on the street. Now if you know you want to make a career of NJA, then it is a fairly moot argument as you would take the risk of being vulnerable to that. I wouldn't say NJA is a volatile company by any stretch so its a safe bet, if indeed that is where you want to go.

Yes NJA fixed owner contracts that previously required them to give owners market rate for their shares when they wanted to sell. It is harder for somebody to dump shares. However, NJA cannot survive on management fees. If jet cards stop being purchased, and owners stop paying hourly rates, it will impact the company greatly. I remember talking to several pilots that basically thought the change in owner contracts will make NJA furlough proof, I disagree with that theory but I will say it protects NJA from having to dish out considerable amounts of money to pay out share owners.

germanaviator

Is that a fact or opinion?

If it were my business I would come up with a pricing structure where:

1. I made some profit on selling a share.

2. I made some profit on management fees.

3. I mal some profit on hourly fees.

So if fewer people bought/renewed shares and reduced their flying there would still be some profit from management fees.

I think it should be in NJ's interest to keep the number of card holders relatively low in the first place. As cards are a one-off payment with no long term commitment, NJ has to buy the jets, not the owners.

I'm interested: How have owner contracts changed since the financial crisis? Are they no longer guaranteed fair market value when they return their share? Don't they still have an early termination option half-way through their 5-year contract?

To the OP: It's NetJets not Net Jets.

AntiPeter

Does any NJA pilot even know the current financial status and profitability of NJA?

NJASAP wouldn’t share it during the last collective bargaining, so unless data has been made public a lot of this could be speculation and hearsay.

Not saying it is wrong, just speculative.