Wheels Up, Net Jets, Or XOJet
12-16-2019, 04:07 PM
#31
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by AntiPeter
Does any NJA pilot even know the current financial status and profitability of NJA?
NJASAP wouldn’t share it during the last collective bargaining, so unless data has been made public a lot of this could be speculation and hearsay.
Not saying it is wrong, just speculative.
NJASAP wouldn’t share it during the last collective bargaining, so unless data has been made public a lot of this could be speculation and hearsay.
Not saying it is wrong, just speculative.
12-16-2019, 04:10 PM
#32
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by germanaviator
Is that a fact or opinion?
If it were my business I would come up with a pricing structure where:
1. I made some profit on selling a share.
2. I made some profit on management fees.
3. I mal some profit on hourly fees.
So if fewer people bought/renewed shares and reduced their flying there would still be some profit from management fees.
I think it should be in NJ's interest to keep the number of card holders relatively low in the first place. As cards are a one-off payment with no long term commitment, NJ has to buy the jets, not the owners.
I'm interested: How have owner contracts changed since the financial crisis? Are they no longer guaranteed fair market value when they return their share? Don't they still have an early termination option half-way through their 5-year contract?
To the OP: It's NetJets not Net Jets.
If it were my business I would come up with a pricing structure where:
1. I made some profit on selling a share.
2. I made some profit on management fees.
3. I mal some profit on hourly fees.
So if fewer people bought/renewed shares and reduced their flying there would still be some profit from management fees.
I think it should be in NJ's interest to keep the number of card holders relatively low in the first place. As cards are a one-off payment with no long term commitment, NJ has to buy the jets, not the owners.
I'm interested: How have owner contracts changed since the financial crisis? Are they no longer guaranteed fair market value when they return their share? Don't they still have an early termination option half-way through their 5-year contract?
To the OP: It's NetJets not Net Jets.
12-17-2019, 11:27 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: Retired NJA & AA
Posts: 1,920
NJA is not a separate company, just a part of a much bigger company. So their detailed results are not public. Usually Berkshire Hathaway mentions how they've done in the yearly report.
Anyone remember Avantair? They went Chapter 7 and had so many outstanding liens on their aircraft the owners got little to nothing back on the shares they had purchased. That was a very strong incentive to pay the extra $$ for NetJets due to our backing by BH.
https://www.sherpareport.com/aircraf...ankruptcy.html
Anyone remember Avantair? They went Chapter 7 and had so many outstanding liens on their aircraft the owners got little to nothing back on the shares they had purchased. That was a very strong incentive to pay the extra $$ for NetJets due to our backing by BH.
https://www.sherpareport.com/aircraf...ankruptcy.html
Originally Posted by AntiPeter
Does any NJA pilot even know the current financial status and profitability of NJA?
NJASAP wouldn’t share it during the last collective bargaining, so unless data has been made public a lot of this could be speculation and hearsay.
Not saying it is wrong, just speculative.
NJASAP wouldn’t share it during the last collective bargaining, so unless data has been made public a lot of this could be speculation and hearsay.
Not saying it is wrong, just speculative.
12-17-2019, 11:46 AM
#34
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by AirBear
NJA is not a separate company, just a part of a much bigger company. So their detailed results are not public. Usually Berkshire Hathaway mentions how they've done in the yearly report.
Anyone remember Avantair? They went Chapter 7 and had so many outstanding liens on their aircraft the owners got little to nothing back on the shares they had purchased. That was a very strong incentive to pay the extra $$ for NetJets due to our backing by BH.
https://www.sherpareport.com/aircraf...ankruptcy.html
Anyone remember Avantair? They went Chapter 7 and had so many outstanding liens on their aircraft the owners got little to nothing back on the shares they had purchased. That was a very strong incentive to pay the extra $$ for NetJets due to our backing by BH.
https://www.sherpareport.com/aircraf...ankruptcy.html
Nobody knows what the "backing" of BH means. And if there is legit backing, that means that NJA isn't financially solvent. What that also means is that when that "backing" goes away, NJA could easily become another statistic. It doesn't matter if owners get to own their quarter share after NJA goes away or not. The monumental undertaking of liquidating and handling the thousands of shares spread across 400+ aircraft would tie up your money for a decade.
There is no reason to believe that NJA isn't doing really well right now. Everyone is, but nobody nows how much debt is carried and what these profits really look like.
12-17-2019, 01:05 PM
#35
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: PIC
Posts: 1,702
Originally Posted by ExtendedDays
NetJets is an entity. There are dozens of large companies and operations tied to BH. I guarantee you there is a PNL for each that very explicitly lays out the financials and that would include NJA.
Nobody knows what the "backing" of BH means. And if there is legit backing, that means that NJA isn't financially solvent. What that also means is that when that "backing" goes away, NJA could easily become another statistic. It doesn't matter if owners get to own their quarter share after NJA goes away or not. The monumental undertaking of liquidating and handling the thousands of shares spread across 400+ aircraft would tie up your money for a decade.
There is no reason to believe that NJA isn't doing really well right now. Everyone is, but nobody nows how much debt is carried and what these profits really look like.
Nobody knows what the "backing" of BH means. And if there is legit backing, that means that NJA isn't financially solvent. What that also means is that when that "backing" goes away, NJA could easily become another statistic. It doesn't matter if owners get to own their quarter share after NJA goes away or not. The monumental undertaking of liquidating and handling the thousands of shares spread across 400+ aircraft would tie up your money for a decade.
There is no reason to believe that NJA isn't doing really well right now. Everyone is, but nobody nows how much debt is carried and what these profits really look like.
Every dollar Berkshire loaned NJA after the meltdown has been paid back, with interest. The ENTIRE $725 million purchase price has been paid back. NJA has never been more profitable.
That's not my opinion. That is information publicly disclosed this past year by NJA leadership.
Exactly how profitable is harder to define because NJA financials are lumped into Berkshire's "Services Division" which comprise the numbers from NJA, FlightSafety and several other entities in order to cloud the exact profitability of each entity from interested parties. Say, labor unions trying to extract greater compensation.
It's a good time to be Uncle Warren. Then again, that hasn't changed much in a long time...
12-17-2019, 02:28 PM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver
Actually, we do know how much debt NJA is carrying right now: ZERO.
Every dollar Berkshire loaned NJA after the meltdown has been paid back, with interest. The ENTIRE $725 million purchase price has been paid back. NJA has never been more profitable.
That's not my opinion. That is information publicly disclosed this past year by NJA leadership.
Exactly how profitable is harder to define because NJA financials are lumped into Berkshire's "Services Division" which comprise the numbers from NJA, FlightSafety and several other entities in order to cloud the exact profitability of each entity from interested parties. Say, labor unions trying to extract greater compensation.
It's a good time to be Uncle Warren. Then again, that hasn't changed much in a long time...
Every dollar Berkshire loaned NJA after the meltdown has been paid back, with interest. The ENTIRE $725 million purchase price has been paid back. NJA has never been more profitable.
That's not my opinion. That is information publicly disclosed this past year by NJA leadership.
Exactly how profitable is harder to define because NJA financials are lumped into Berkshire's "Services Division" which comprise the numbers from NJA, FlightSafety and several other entities in order to cloud the exact profitability of each entity from interested parties. Say, labor unions trying to extract greater compensation.
It's a good time to be Uncle Warren. Then again, that hasn't changed much in a long time...
12-17-2019, 05:53 PM
#37
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: PIC
Posts: 1,702
Originally Posted by ExtendedDays
I’m not talking about the loan from BH, but NJA uses credit for aircraft orders. There is some debt intertwined there, and nobody knows how much.
12-17-2019, 06:14 PM
#38
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by GeeWizDriver
There may be a revolving line of credit but it isn't much. They don't take delivery of new equipment on spec anymore. It's already paid for when it shows up. A lesson they learned last time around.
12-17-2019, 06:37 PM
#39
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: PIC
Posts: 1,702
Originally Posted by ExtendedDays
Yea like I said I don’t think there is any indication that NJA isn’t doing great and I am sure they have tightened up there debt and risk but still the point remains, we just don’t know exactly what it looks like.
12-19-2019, 07:39 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2018
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by ExtendedDays
Yep I won't argue with that. XO did pilots real dirty.
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