The cognitive dissonance is amazing. The point of an industry standard contract is to get industry standard. I believe even JetBlue has profit sharing in their contract.

“well profit sharing is stupid because I got ¢.50 at my last regional.”

Great. So now we really are a regional. Breeze, Allegiant, and Avelo don’t have it either. I guess they really are our peer group.

crazy idea guys. There is a middle ground on profit sharing. We can get the words “Proft Sharing” in the contract now, and fight over the percentages% the next time around. Instead of having to do twice the work in 10 years.

speaking of delta. That’s more or less what they did. They didn’t just get $50k profit sharing checks as a result of the last round of negotiations.

 

Exactly right. We could just tweak our bonus language a bit. 3.R. I believe Alaska profit sharing language was/might still be what we have now. Without looking it might have changed? The difference being they actually have non flight crew non-management employees.

 

That's literally how EVERY other airline with PS got it. We just HAD to be different because that's the DFC way!

Times are tough? Sure we will take concessions but it will ONLY benefit those here now...screw everyone who comes later.

Traffic's bad on Pena btw!

 

We had profit sharing and Fapa invest at the same time under republic. Profit sharing was negotiated away by Fapa (for 4ish million) with indigo at least a year after Fapa invest was created. Two separate negotiations with two different companies. Based on whatever language and perceived leverage at the time.

 

More like hey we need concessions to survive (republic). Ok how are you going to make us whole at some point in the future? The concessions are valued at 120 million and we already have profit sharing. Equity stake. Not the first airline to do this either. Delta pilots got it in the merger. Some Jb pilots got equity early on. I guess they screwed everyone who came later.

Equity and profit sharing are two completely separate agreements/concepts. You can’t get equity if you’re not on property at the time it’s negotiated.
Equity is to make whole and to help facilitate merges. Profit sharing in theory is so we’re all rowing in the same direction.

 

You are correct that profit sharing was negotiated by FAPA, not FAPA Invest (FI), as a return for concessions, along with what became the phantom equity agreement. At that time FAPA was the bargaining agent for F9 pilots and we were owned by Republic. FI (the entity) had nothing to do with the origination of either the profit sharing or the phantom equity. Due to some lawsuits slung by the IBT and other issues, FI was created as a third party investment group with a mandate to manage the Profit Sharing and PI outside of the DOL and NMB. Once it became an agreement outside of the CBA, the IBT could no longer pirate it. FAPA was no longer the bargaining agent at this point. Profit sharing was not negotiated away by FAPA, it was a condition of the purchase of F9 imposed by Indigo. The Indigo folks literally showed FI the Profit Sharing math, explained it was a plan negotiated with Republic and not Indigo, and they wouldn't follow through with the purchase with it in place (the math was VERY favorable for the pilot group, hence Indigo wanted it gone). Separating from Republic was a priority at the time (IMSL and many, many other reasons) so the Profit Sharing was erased while the Phantom Equity remained with conditions (all of which were met to the tune of $139 million paid out to about 600ish participating pilots).

With all of that said, I believe wasting negotiating capital on Profit Sharing language is misguided. If I get motivated to explain with math I will some day, but suffice it to say profit sharing with the Indigo model of an airline balance sheet will disappoint. Frankly, I am surprised they haven't offered it themselves as a distraction from actual hourly rates knowing it will never pay.

 

Thank you for the more detailed insight.

 

Exactly. Many years ago, when Skywest Inc bought ASA, they offered the ASA pilots profit sharing and we took it. ASA never saw a profit again, while Skywest was raking it in. With this leadership team we would never see a profit sharing check. Give me good rates. I am ok without profit sharing.

 

waisting any negotiating capital on profit sharing is stupid. If management had a clue they would offer it outside of cba’s as an incentive to make the company (more) profitable, and it would work. Just look at the bag fiasco.
if we negotiated for it and it was in the cba the company would ensure they wouldn’t have to ever pay. They always find ways to screw over the cba. Now, go work your 10hr 3 day trip and enjoy it!

 

If you’re insinuating that the company would avoid a profit in order to avoid paying out a little PS to the pilots, you maybe need to take a break from social media. If you’re instead convinced the company would somehow pull some kind of gimmick to avoid paying out PS notwithstanding having booked a profit, then what you’re really saying is that you don’t have faith that our negotiators would secure ironclad-enough PS language.

In either case, the problem isn’t profit sharing as a concept. There are plenty of instances in business where it’s worked to the mutual benefit of labor and management.