Family Goals vs Career Goals
11-13-2005, 07:42 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Family Goals vs Career Goals
I'm 24, and I am a CFI/CFII/MEI, and an instructor (Asst. Chief) at a large school. I'm a Daytona campus Embry-Riddle Aeronautical Science graduate. I have about 1300 TT 170 ME.
So, I managed to get all of that stuff in order before I ever gave any thought to the idea of having a family (the "Riddle Ratio" may have had something to do with that). I never had any doubt that I would get a job at a regional, then at a major, and retire flying 777s to Europe.
Now, I realize I'm simply unwilling to be a 60 year old looking back at a great airline career but have that at the cost of failed marriages or resentful kids. "Good father" and "good husband" are more significant to me than "good airline pilot."
So, I'm lucky to be young and know I want to fly airplanes for a living and to have started down that path and built the best credentials I knew how to up to this point. However, now I don't know what the hell to do.
I want to be home with a family the majority of the time. I realize I will have to work hard and make sacrifices, and I'm not trying to avoid paying dues. I simply wish to pay dues and work hard, but get to play with my [at this point theoretical] kids and kiss my [now girlfriend but maybe one day] wife [nearly] each night.
So, advice, please!
Thanks a lot
--EK
So, I managed to get all of that stuff in order before I ever gave any thought to the idea of having a family (the "Riddle Ratio" may have had something to do with that). I never had any doubt that I would get a job at a regional, then at a major, and retire flying 777s to Europe.
Now, I realize I'm simply unwilling to be a 60 year old looking back at a great airline career but have that at the cost of failed marriages or resentful kids. "Good father" and "good husband" are more significant to me than "good airline pilot."
So, I'm lucky to be young and know I want to fly airplanes for a living and to have started down that path and built the best credentials I knew how to up to this point. However, now I don't know what the hell to do.
I want to be home with a family the majority of the time. I realize I will have to work hard and make sacrifices, and I'm not trying to avoid paying dues. I simply wish to pay dues and work hard, but get to play with my [at this point theoretical] kids and kiss my [now girlfriend but maybe one day] wife [nearly] each night.
So, advice, please!
Thanks a lot
--EK
11-13-2005, 07:56 PM
#2
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Ethan
Ethan,
Good luck with that one. The happiest airline pilots are able to mentally flip a switch and become single at heart once they push back. They play on the road and once home transform back into "Dad". They prefer to be gone, take on extra trips. On days off they jump seat across country to play golf with old friends. The family is just to fill the wallet with pictures. After a few years home feels stranger than a hotel room. Your family gets use to your absence.
Anyone with true family aspirations is torn apart by the sight of a four day trip on the schedule. They can't handle the idea of being away at training for 30 days. Crying phone calls from a lonely wife and kids are too much to bare. In the old days it was possible to eventually get on with a good company that offered 15 days off a month and a good salary, but those days are fading fast. Even 15 days off isn't that much.
I don't know if you were serious about the 777, but that thing will keep you away from home for weeks at a time. I don't think you can successfully be a good father and pilot anymore.
SkyHigh
Good luck with that one. The happiest airline pilots are able to mentally flip a switch and become single at heart once they push back. They play on the road and once home transform back into "Dad". They prefer to be gone, take on extra trips. On days off they jump seat across country to play golf with old friends. The family is just to fill the wallet with pictures. After a few years home feels stranger than a hotel room. Your family gets use to your absence.
Anyone with true family aspirations is torn apart by the sight of a four day trip on the schedule. They can't handle the idea of being away at training for 30 days. Crying phone calls from a lonely wife and kids are too much to bare. In the old days it was possible to eventually get on with a good company that offered 15 days off a month and a good salary, but those days are fading fast. Even 15 days off isn't that much.
I don't know if you were serious about the 777, but that thing will keep you away from home for weeks at a time. I don't think you can successfully be a good father and pilot anymore.
SkyHigh
11-14-2005, 04:42 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: EMB 170/175 F.O.
Posts: 549
From a family oriented pilot...
I'll tell you, as someone who struggled with the same things you are, and still struggles with those things, it is possible to have a flying career and be a good family man. Notice I didn't say 777 career. You have to decide what is important. You can have an airline career and have a good homelife if you want to do turns (out and backs) everyday. That does get monotonous after awhile. A corporate job is a possibility if you get on with the right company. The problem is that as a corporate guy, you are married to the airplane. If your company does a lot of weird hours and spur of the moment trips, you'll likely be better off as an airline pilot because at least you'll have the schedule. If you find a company that does mostly day trips and is mostly scheduled at least a week out, you'll have a good homelife. These companies do exist, you just have to network to find them. This industry is full of people who have chosen their careers over their families. It takes a dedicated person to lay off of their career desires in order to be a good family man. I have for the most part had to give up dreams of flying a 767 over the pond in lieu of being happy at home, and to me, it is well worth it. Just spend some time deciding where your priorities lie. You can live comfortably without ever making $160/hour at DAL. Just make smart decisions. Good luck in your struggle.
11-14-2005, 06:06 AM
#5
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Ethan,
Despite what SkyHigh might say about the profession, it IS quite possible to balance an airline lifestyle and family bliss... (you'll find that I don't agree with many of the comments SkyHigh makes on this forum). In essence, he has told you in this thread that if you want to be a happy pilot, you have to have a "false family" somebody to go home to on the days off- to do the laundry and fill the wallet... when your're gone you can live the life of the pilot. I have no clue what soured his view on flying, but there is happiness out there to be had (and still fullfill your career aspirations to fly).
It does take a bit of understanding and balancing, but I know many people who have very fulfilling aviation careers and very content relationships at home (myself included). I commend you on your decision to put family priorities first. My family will always come first, and they have been very supportive of my career, and understanding of the circumstances.
Working for the airlines (or any flight department) will mean time away from home. An airline schedule means that you are gone between 15 and 21 nights a month. You will work holidays, and miss important dates. That's part of the job agreement that you take on when you pin on the wings.
But there are ways around some of these issues, particularly as you build seniority. For my first few years, I often had to work the holidays. So I bid to overnight in a city where I had family- occassionally I would even fly my GF/fiancee/wife (depending on the year) with me positive space so we could spend the holiday together. If I couldn't get a city that had family, I bid for somewhere that I would enjoy being away (Burlington, VT for Christmas is absolutely beautiful).
Other alternatives are to work your way into a management pilot position. Work as an airline instructor or checkairman. Work as a chief pilot, fleet manager, or director of training. There are many positions within an airline that allow you to spend more time at home, yet still allow you to fly.
Finally there's the corporate gig- they have their upsides and downsides too, but if you can find a good one, you will never look back. You probably won't fly the "heavy iron" or make the huge salaries, but if you want quality of life, many corporate jobs offer a different variety.
I currently fly a Citation for a Fortune 500 company subsidiary. The company is very stable (with over 10 billion/year in revenue). I am on call 24/7, but we have very few "popup" trips... on average I have at least 48 hrs notice of upcoming trips, and work very few weekends. Salary is roughly what a CRJ captain makes at a regional, but I fly about 30 hrs a month and am home almost every night.
The downside is that I don't get travel/jumpseat privileges or fly some of the more advanced/comfortable equipment that airline have, and I don't work with such a diverse group of people (there are only two of us in the flight department)... but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
I recommend that you take a look at some of the options out there. Consider going to work for the airlines for a few years to get a feel for it. Like it or not, the airlines are one of the best ways to gain valuable turbine experience and flight time in the shortest amount of time (I logged about 3700 hours in just over 4 years of line flying).
If you decide you don't like it, odds are that some of your coworkers or one of the people that you get to know through the airlines can offer some assistance in finding a job that fits what you want (either within the airline world, or outside of it).
Good luck and feel free to get in touch via PM or email if you want to discuss some additional options over the phone...
~Josh
Despite what SkyHigh might say about the profession, it IS quite possible to balance an airline lifestyle and family bliss... (you'll find that I don't agree with many of the comments SkyHigh makes on this forum). In essence, he has told you in this thread that if you want to be a happy pilot, you have to have a "false family" somebody to go home to on the days off- to do the laundry and fill the wallet... when your're gone you can live the life of the pilot. I have no clue what soured his view on flying, but there is happiness out there to be had (and still fullfill your career aspirations to fly).
It does take a bit of understanding and balancing, but I know many people who have very fulfilling aviation careers and very content relationships at home (myself included). I commend you on your decision to put family priorities first. My family will always come first, and they have been very supportive of my career, and understanding of the circumstances.
Working for the airlines (or any flight department) will mean time away from home. An airline schedule means that you are gone between 15 and 21 nights a month. You will work holidays, and miss important dates. That's part of the job agreement that you take on when you pin on the wings.
But there are ways around some of these issues, particularly as you build seniority. For my first few years, I often had to work the holidays. So I bid to overnight in a city where I had family- occassionally I would even fly my GF/fiancee/wife (depending on the year) with me positive space so we could spend the holiday together. If I couldn't get a city that had family, I bid for somewhere that I would enjoy being away (Burlington, VT for Christmas is absolutely beautiful).
Other alternatives are to work your way into a management pilot position. Work as an airline instructor or checkairman. Work as a chief pilot, fleet manager, or director of training. There are many positions within an airline that allow you to spend more time at home, yet still allow you to fly.
Finally there's the corporate gig- they have their upsides and downsides too, but if you can find a good one, you will never look back. You probably won't fly the "heavy iron" or make the huge salaries, but if you want quality of life, many corporate jobs offer a different variety.
I currently fly a Citation for a Fortune 500 company subsidiary. The company is very stable (with over 10 billion/year in revenue). I am on call 24/7, but we have very few "popup" trips... on average I have at least 48 hrs notice of upcoming trips, and work very few weekends. Salary is roughly what a CRJ captain makes at a regional, but I fly about 30 hrs a month and am home almost every night.
The downside is that I don't get travel/jumpseat privileges or fly some of the more advanced/comfortable equipment that airline have, and I don't work with such a diverse group of people (there are only two of us in the flight department)... but I wouldn't trade it for the world.
I recommend that you take a look at some of the options out there. Consider going to work for the airlines for a few years to get a feel for it. Like it or not, the airlines are one of the best ways to gain valuable turbine experience and flight time in the shortest amount of time (I logged about 3700 hours in just over 4 years of line flying).
If you decide you don't like it, odds are that some of your coworkers or one of the people that you get to know through the airlines can offer some assistance in finding a job that fits what you want (either within the airline world, or outside of it).
Good luck and feel free to get in touch via PM or email if you want to discuss some additional options over the phone...
~Josh
11-14-2005, 06:58 AM
#6
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
There are pockets
Ethan,
There are small pockets and hidden places where you could luck into a position that will allow you to have a lot of time at home with the family. However if you have huge career aspirations and dream of flying the heavy metal then your options and chances slim down a whole lot.
Even I have had some good jobs that kept me at home most of the time, but things change. All it takes is a slight change to the scheduling policy or perhaps a new manager and your cushy home job is gone. The most successful pilots never shy away from the plumb jobs. They jump at the chance to fly a 747-400 even if it means being in Hong Kong for six months of training while their families spend another Xmas without Dad. Successful pilots don't think twice about dragging their families across the country chasing the next big score. Eventually they leave the family to settle in some strange town far from home while they commute all over the country. Days at home shrink from 10 a month down to 6 or 4.
I think that each of us needs to dig deep and ask where our priorities lie. If you truly intend to put your family first then you had better trim down your career expectations. In the end you could wind up working as a dispatcher or as a ground school instructor. If that doesnt appeal to you then perhaps you should stay single or marry a FA. No matter how you slice it even a best case airline scenario has you being gone for over half of your life. Those are the years when your children are growing and the best part of your life is going on. It is no fun to be sitting in a hotel room listening to your babies first birthday song over the phone. At 60 you can enjoy retiring to an empty house and realize that all your friends and family have long ago moved on. Pilot life can be really ruff on someone who truly cares about those at home.
I am a little sour because I care about my family. I didn't like being away so much. My career was spent studying my seniors and learned from their experiences and from my own. I have enjoyed some good times but they rarely last. Some pilots are so taken by the sirens song that they don't even realize what they are loosing until it is long gone.
SKyHigh
There are small pockets and hidden places where you could luck into a position that will allow you to have a lot of time at home with the family. However if you have huge career aspirations and dream of flying the heavy metal then your options and chances slim down a whole lot.
Even I have had some good jobs that kept me at home most of the time, but things change. All it takes is a slight change to the scheduling policy or perhaps a new manager and your cushy home job is gone. The most successful pilots never shy away from the plumb jobs. They jump at the chance to fly a 747-400 even if it means being in Hong Kong for six months of training while their families spend another Xmas without Dad. Successful pilots don't think twice about dragging their families across the country chasing the next big score. Eventually they leave the family to settle in some strange town far from home while they commute all over the country. Days at home shrink from 10 a month down to 6 or 4.
I think that each of us needs to dig deep and ask where our priorities lie. If you truly intend to put your family first then you had better trim down your career expectations. In the end you could wind up working as a dispatcher or as a ground school instructor. If that doesnt appeal to you then perhaps you should stay single or marry a FA. No matter how you slice it even a best case airline scenario has you being gone for over half of your life. Those are the years when your children are growing and the best part of your life is going on. It is no fun to be sitting in a hotel room listening to your babies first birthday song over the phone. At 60 you can enjoy retiring to an empty house and realize that all your friends and family have long ago moved on. Pilot life can be really ruff on someone who truly cares about those at home.
I am a little sour because I care about my family. I didn't like being away so much. My career was spent studying my seniors and learned from their experiences and from my own. I have enjoyed some good times but they rarely last. Some pilots are so taken by the sirens song that they don't even realize what they are loosing until it is long gone.
SKyHigh
11-14-2005, 10:03 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 393
I second what Josh said.
Oh, and the very most important thing of all: THE SPOUSE
I am lucky to have a wonderful gal who has been with me since my early flight training days, and NEVER EVER complains about my being gone, but is always happy when I come home. I have seen many situations where a jealous or otherwise nutty spouse can make a pilot's life absolutely miserable.
I have small children, and a good balance. Sometimes I have to work four-day trips, but often just back to back two-day trips, which means only 1 night away at a time.
The glass is half-full, half-empty, or, if you're SkyHigh, it's a muddy ditch.
Oh, and the very most important thing of all: THE SPOUSE
I am lucky to have a wonderful gal who has been with me since my early flight training days, and NEVER EVER complains about my being gone, but is always happy when I come home. I have seen many situations where a jealous or otherwise nutty spouse can make a pilot's life absolutely miserable.
I have small children, and a good balance. Sometimes I have to work four-day trips, but often just back to back two-day trips, which means only 1 night away at a time.
The glass is half-full, half-empty, or, if you're SkyHigh, it's a muddy ditch.
11-14-2005, 11:01 AM
#8
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Fokker
Fokker,
In every bad situation in life there are always a few who are oddly happy with things. In prison there are those who enjoy the lifestyle and feel safe behind bars. Why even in old concentration camp photos there are a few smiles. It doesnt mean that the happy ones are right or wrong. They just have different needs from most. I have higher expectations from life than what Horizon could provide. Some of my intentions for starting an aviation career was to enjoy a better life than most. I never expected to be impoverished while working full time at a coveted regional or so tired and unhealthy from a long string of 9 leg, 14 hour duty days that I had to spend my days off sleeping. Most people I worked with were heavily disappointed with the job. We could go on with drawn out dissertations about why SkyHigh is an old stick in the mud or a glass is half full type. I would simplify it by saying that I don't like being poor and overworked and some do. I wanted my wife to be at home raising our kids. Others push the burden of providing a living onto their wives and ship the kids off to daycare. I don't care its your life, but I think it is unfair to label me as negative because I will not accept the poor conditions that Horizon offers.
SkyHigh
In every bad situation in life there are always a few who are oddly happy with things. In prison there are those who enjoy the lifestyle and feel safe behind bars. Why even in old concentration camp photos there are a few smiles. It doesnt mean that the happy ones are right or wrong. They just have different needs from most. I have higher expectations from life than what Horizon could provide. Some of my intentions for starting an aviation career was to enjoy a better life than most. I never expected to be impoverished while working full time at a coveted regional or so tired and unhealthy from a long string of 9 leg, 14 hour duty days that I had to spend my days off sleeping. Most people I worked with were heavily disappointed with the job. We could go on with drawn out dissertations about why SkyHigh is an old stick in the mud or a glass is half full type. I would simplify it by saying that I don't like being poor and overworked and some do. I wanted my wife to be at home raising our kids. Others push the burden of providing a living onto their wives and ship the kids off to daycare. I don't care its your life, but I think it is unfair to label me as negative because I will not accept the poor conditions that Horizon offers.
SkyHigh
11-14-2005, 11:29 AM
#10
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
SkyHigh,
That's your choice- and you're right, there's no right or wrong... but rather than sour the experience for whomever might come along, why not just offer some encouragement and let them make their own decisions.
Your personal priorities are yours. Mine are mine. Neither is right or wrong, except in the eye of the beholder. Ethan, or any other person, knows what they (and their respective families) can or can't tolerate as far as lifestyle and quality of life.
In fact, many couples that I know in this industry THRIVE in such a diverse environment. Many kids love having parents that work for the airlines because of the lifestyle some of these parents carry over to personal life. (I know of many airline children that take long weekends to Europe or South America... put whole new meaning to "what did you do during spring break?").
Just because you weren't happy with the lifestyle at Horizon doesn't make it a "bad situation" or make us that enjoyed that lifestyle sorry "prisoners". In fact, there are many benefits to working for the airlines. (For example, my wife was able to work towards her Masters degree in Boston at the school of her choice while we lived in Virginia)
Ultimately it comes down to making a decision with your family. What each family can endure varies. What each family wants in regards to day care, time home, career expectations, etc varies. What is set in stone for you or I, might not be for another. Either way, there is no right or wrong.
That's your choice- and you're right, there's no right or wrong... but rather than sour the experience for whomever might come along, why not just offer some encouragement and let them make their own decisions.
Your personal priorities are yours. Mine are mine. Neither is right or wrong, except in the eye of the beholder. Ethan, or any other person, knows what they (and their respective families) can or can't tolerate as far as lifestyle and quality of life.
In fact, many couples that I know in this industry THRIVE in such a diverse environment. Many kids love having parents that work for the airlines because of the lifestyle some of these parents carry over to personal life. (I know of many airline children that take long weekends to Europe or South America... put whole new meaning to "what did you do during spring break?").
Just because you weren't happy with the lifestyle at Horizon doesn't make it a "bad situation" or make us that enjoyed that lifestyle sorry "prisoners". In fact, there are many benefits to working for the airlines. (For example, my wife was able to work towards her Masters degree in Boston at the school of her choice while we lived in Virginia)
Ultimately it comes down to making a decision with your family. What each family can endure varies. What each family wants in regards to day care, time home, career expectations, etc varies. What is set in stone for you or I, might not be for another. Either way, there is no right or wrong.
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