How does AA/Express/Skywest/Horizon get into KASE during times with low ceilings?
 

As I was sitting in KASE waiting for passengers I saw a CRJ landed straight in runway 15 when ATIS was calling 1500 OVC. What special rules do you guys have to shot this approach, let alone land from straight in?

Sam -

Unless I'm reading some in your post wrong; there doiesn't seem to be any problem with a 1,500' overcast condition (better than basic VFR of 1000/3) and a straight-in landing is probably the easiest of any approach.

USMCFLYR

the LOC DME-E requires 2200-3 for Category B and I would bet the airlines are flying faster than we are.

AH...I see - a question about the mins on the approach. Well...I cant help you much there. I had to look up the airport identifier. I've never flown into Aspen, but I thought the basis for your question might have been along those lines. I agree about the approach speed though. I'll assume that they would be a Cat C aircraft, but I'm sure you'll get some good answers on here.

USMCFLYR

Airlines are allowed to shoot the approach as long as they have the required visibility. Ceiling does not prevent them from shooting the approach. Perhaps the ceiling being reported was a thin layer that could be seen thru. As long as you have the required visibility, airport enviornment in sight, and in continuous position to land, you should be good to go.


It has been over a year since I shot an approach there, but from what I remember visibility was usually the more restricting factor.

I forgot this rahc. I just learned this yesterday matter of fact. I was talking to a former military guy who is now flying fractional and he mentioned the visibility requirement and said that it was one of the things that was hard for him to get use too.

USMCFLYR

Ceilings are not controlling. You can shoot the approach as long as you have the required VISIBILITY. Keep in mind that just because the ATIS is reporting 015 OVC, that doesn't mean that an aircraft couldn't gain sight of the runway environment at a higher altitude. Ceilings could be higher then reported in some areas, as WX moves/changes.

I would have to look at the plate, however it has been visibility is determining and ceilings are considered since as long as I can remember.

AA

Kase
 

We do the special LOC DME 15. It has an MDA of 8780. We need "3 miles" to be cleared. We have 5 step down fixes and cross DBL at 14000 with gear down and flaps 30. The miss is at 3.9 DME. Inside that we have a "Balked Landing" procedure. T/O of on 33 requires 1 mile and 400 ft. ceiling. We operate from 7 AM til 11 PM. Flights to DEN, ORD, LAX, SFO for the UA side and SLC and ATL for DL.
The LYNX Dash and MESA Dash only need 2 miles I believe, but our MDA is lower.
We love holding over DBL as GA and 135 guys shoot the VOR and go missed. Every min. that goes by we get paid more :)
Hope this helps. :cool:

CRJ100 great answer! It was pretty sweet seeing RJ's appear out of the clouds. We needed 4200 for company OPS but the weather quickly deteriorated as we waited for passengers. It was a pretty fun approach. Thanks for taking the mystery out of it. Hope to try your approach soon.

Unfortunately, that will not happen unless you are a part 121 air carrier pilot. You will also need special training for ASE and the specific approach in the sim. Jeppesen does not publish the Special LOC 15 procedure to the public.

Those of you interested should check out Gulfstream's website. During EVS (Enhanced Vision System) testing they had special authorization to go into ASE at night. They were visual the entire time via infared vision on the HUD. It has been out for a while now, but is still pretty amazing.

Why is this in the Majors forum?????

To confuse matters, ceiling does become controlling in 121 when determining certain alternate criteria, but only for filing purposes. If you actually go shoot the approach, it is always visibility unless the plate says otherwise.

True, and do what you have to do in an emergency. But who in their right mind would file ASE as an alternate? The approaches in there are restrictive enough as it is, after adding the Op Spec C55 criteria, it wouldn't make much sense.

I haven't looked at the plates in years, but I wouldn't doubt that the back says N/A for filing as an alternate. If not, I wouldn't doubt that any of the operators that go in there prevent it.

I wasn't suggesting ASE as an ALT! I'm sure it is says NA.

Another thing to keep in mind is that just because it says that its overcast at 2200 feet, it doesn't mean that its overcast at that altitude in the direction the approach path is coming from. It has to do with how ceilings are measured along the entire horizon circle. The ceiling is reported as the lowest cloud layer or layers covering at least 5/8 of the sky, and its not necessarily a continuous layer.

I followed a Key Lime Metro in there one day...:eek:

That guy was earning his money.:rolleyes:

You are correct. Our MDA is just under 10000 feet. Our procedure is to also be configured at Red Table VOR. I have witnessed your approach from the jumpseat and will say that it is nothing short of hair raising.

When I flew up front with the Skywest pilots I thought they told me the LOC approach there allows them to go down to a 1,000'. Been a little while though, so I could be mistaken.

That answer was concise, well written, useful, and based on real information rather than personal belief or speculation. Don't let it happen again, Mister!

How many folks can the -700 take from ASE to ATL???

Will ASE ever get WAAS?

The LOC DME 15 special that we do does get us down to 1000 AGL. Thats 8780 MSL. The field elevation is 7780 MSL. The runway is 7000x100. It looks like your screamin the first few times you do it. I thought I had a pretty good idea of what I was doin in the RJ until I started going into ASE. What caught me off guard was the violence. I've never experienced turbulence at that magnitude before, having big rocks above you out your right window doesn't help. I havn't done ATL yet, I've heard if the the bags work out you can take a full boat. I've got it coming up so I'll find out soon enough.

70 folks from Aspen to ATL and still meet the climb requirements, eh? That would admittedly be pretty impressive.

I thought I heard (bear in mind, so could be wrong) that they can be just as frequently weight restricted going IN due to approach climb limits.

Anybody at Skywest willing to share with us what your emergency extraction procedure is for ASE in case of an engine failure?

ummm... turn around :p

Ummm Ladies and Gentleman from the cockpit this is your captain speaking. Uhhh light em up cause we're going down!

- Dennis Leary

Pray that Ted Striker is on board.

Did you drive the 146 for AWAC back in the UA days?? From what i hear it took all that thing had to balk or miss. I would'nt want to be on a 700 that lost one on the go.

I rode in from DEN on the jumpseat b/c it was full in back. This was during the winter, so the performance #'s most likely were different than during the summer.

Again, SKW guys can clarify, I'm sure.

I never flew the BAC at Wiskey, but I never heard any complaints from the CAs I flew with who did about its climb performance...always heard it could do a OEI balked landing with little problem.

Sam, I use to fly into ASE and TEX and I do not consider those approaches fun. Fun gets you killed in there.

Im surprised the 170 never got the opportunity to fly into Aspen. Always wondered how the plane would do there.

I would assume the "special" go-around procedure would be just to bring the flaps from 5(or flaps full) to flaps 4 (flaps 5 is the same degree setting as 4 but flaps 4 are for takeoff & flaps 5 are for normal landing). Maybe someday.....

Three Green, I appreciate and understand your concern with “fun”. Perhaps that comes off wrong… We took this approach very serious and got in on the first attempt thanks to WX. Best of luck to all of us and thanks for all the good 121 info.

The Balked Landing is not fun. Much of the sim training is on the procedure. 2 engine is not THAT big of a deal...I know of at least one time it was used (besides proving runs). SE is not to cool...Basicly you fly at V2 and fly the LOC course. At 0.8 DME SOUTH of the LOC you do a LEFT turn back around to and end up intercepting the normal IPKN miss procedure.
I think the main downside is the winds. Could be a real problem.

As far as full loads to ATL...I have not seen any problems. Every flight is differant though...Anti Ice or not, Hot or Cold etc. There are problems from time to time.
I think the DASH (Q-400) would be the best for many of these flights because of winds and performance problems for the 700. I think the one downside is the range vs. time. For DEN flights no problem, but if you look at the flight times to ORD - ATL - LAX - SFO that is where a jet is needed.

BTW...Any thoughts if the "New" Delta would throw MSP into the mix?
LYNX guys...is it true you have an 18kt. T/O and Landing Tail wind limitation?

When I was at Whiskey on the ramp out there Mesaba sent in the ARJ from both Minneapolis and Memphis. I was hoping that they would send the CRJ-900 in after they Parked the ARJ.

We were told there was absolutely no chance of us (Mesaba) going back to ASE once the Avros were parked. Probably because there isn't the need with the 700's already going there for Delta. I never did go there myself but I did get to watch one of the sim training lessons for it. We also had the authorization and charts for the LOC/DME 15 and special training and procedures to go there that most if not all 91/135 places would NOT have. In the Avro with its low speed manuvering and 4 engines it seemed well suited for that airport (if there is such a thing) Currently flying the 900 I would NOT want to take that thing in to ASE based on; what I saw in that sim compared to what I have experienced on my time on the 900's. There are only 2 planes I've flown that I'd be comfortable taking to ASE (if I were still proficient on them), the Avro and the Lear 31a.

Many corp and charter outfits restrict themselves to day light VFR operations only at Aspen.

Are you talking about at KASE specifically or in general? Not a Lynx guy but at Horizon the tailwind limitation for t/o and landing on the Q400 is 20kts. If the question was for the airport specifically then sorry, I don't know.