What's happening at Horizon and Jets?
11-30-2015, 06:15 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Supine
Posts: 251
Originally Posted by snackysmores
The company knows if we don't get these 8 jets it's all over. We will lose 17 planes at the end of 2017, all the junior FO's will quit because they know they're getting furloughed anyway. Junior CAs will quit before they get displaced back to FO, might as well go build seniority somewhere else.
Our on time performance will drop down to 5-10%, the ship will burn and it will burn well, taking Alaska's stock price with it as 40% of their feed is destroyed with no one to replace the flying. Skywest can't take it because their pilots are already maxed out with 95 hour lines.
Alaska will lose its brand loyalty as all the ****ed off residents in the outstations are forced to make the 2-3 hours drive to Seattle, why stay with Alaska when Delta is cheaper.
The company knows all of this, they aren't stupid. They will still play their cat and mouse bullsh*t with us just to spite us though. Man, Brad Tilden must hate our guts.
Our on time performance will drop down to 5-10%, the ship will burn and it will burn well, taking Alaska's stock price with it as 40% of their feed is destroyed with no one to replace the flying. Skywest can't take it because their pilots are already maxed out with 95 hour lines.
Alaska will lose its brand loyalty as all the ****ed off residents in the outstations are forced to make the 2-3 hours drive to Seattle, why stay with Alaska when Delta is cheaper.
The company knows all of this, they aren't stupid. They will still play their cat and mouse bullsh*t with us just to spite us though. Man, Brad Tilden must hate our guts.
11-30-2015, 06:21 PM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by Singlecoil
All correct and spot on until the last sentence. Brad Tilden's job is to get the best deal he can by any ethical means he can. If he doesn't, he gets fired by the board. He is putting the pressure on the pilots right now. Until pilots learn to put pressure back on the CEO, don't expect any deal to be in your favor. You can't take it personally, because he certainly doesn't.
I think we will be okay, especially when he's having a new house built in Redmond supposedly. Who else is going to get him there?
11-30-2015, 09:41 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Position: A321 - 39E
Posts: 312
What's happening at Horizon and Jets?
Apparently Compass just announced a boost in new hire pay and the addition of commuter hotels. I'm losing track of how many regionals have seen contract improvements since our jet debate has started. Off the top of my head there is Skywest, Republic, CommutAir, and now Compass and probably more.
This whole conversation is just getting ridiculous. Based one the vague information we've been getting, it sounds like there are no contract improvements being discussed and it would have to be something really good if it is to include PBS. I can't see how we could get something to vote on that has any chance of success. I presume the union feels the same way.
This whole conversation is just getting ridiculous. Based one the vague information we've been getting, it sounds like there are no contract improvements being discussed and it would have to be something really good if it is to include PBS. I can't see how we could get something to vote on that has any chance of success. I presume the union feels the same way.
12-01-2015, 02:11 AM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 216
I suspect that the timing of the negotiations is making things worse for Alaska than the EXCO and pilot group.
If Air Group had started this "concessions or furloughs" BS as late as last year, there's a chance they could have gotten something passed, since our contract was better than other regionals for first year pay, and we could still be picky with hiring, so the "you're overpaid" argument might have had some merit.
Since Air Group waited until the middle of this year to start pushing for concessions, they've seen three other regionals (including SKW) get contracts that included substantial raises in first year pay and other pilot-friendly changes, which means Air Group has seen their bargaining position steadily erode, and the situation just keeps getting worse as more regionals have to bump pay to attract pilots to keep pace with attrition.
When you combine that with QX's lack of jets, hiring bonuses, flow, or a meaningful future resulting in fewer applicants and less qualified new hires (and every other regional currently hiring like crazy), Air Group has essentially painted themselves into a corner, and our pilot group is very aware of it.
If Air Group had started this "concessions or furloughs" BS as late as last year, there's a chance they could have gotten something passed, since our contract was better than other regionals for first year pay, and we could still be picky with hiring, so the "you're overpaid" argument might have had some merit.
Since Air Group waited until the middle of this year to start pushing for concessions, they've seen three other regionals (including SKW) get contracts that included substantial raises in first year pay and other pilot-friendly changes, which means Air Group has seen their bargaining position steadily erode, and the situation just keeps getting worse as more regionals have to bump pay to attract pilots to keep pace with attrition.
When you combine that with QX's lack of jets, hiring bonuses, flow, or a meaningful future resulting in fewer applicants and less qualified new hires (and every other regional currently hiring like crazy), Air Group has essentially painted themselves into a corner, and our pilot group is very aware of it.
12-01-2015, 06:49 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Position: A321 - 39E
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by cactusflyer
I suspect that the timing of the negotiations is making things worse for Alaska than the EXCO and pilot group.
If Air Group had started this "concessions or furloughs" BS as late as last year, there's a chance they could have gotten something passed, since our contract was better than other regionals for first year pay, and we could still be picky with hiring, so the "you're overpaid" argument might have had some merit.
Since Air Group waited until the middle of this year to start pushing for concessions, they've seen three other regionals (including SKW) get contracts that included substantial raises in first year pay and other pilot-friendly changes, which means Air Group has seen their bargaining position steadily erode, and the situation just keeps getting worse as more regionals have to bump pay to attract pilots to keep pace with attrition.
When you combine that with QX's lack of jets, hiring bonuses, flow, or a meaningful future resulting in fewer applicants and less qualified new hires (and every other regional currently hiring like crazy), Air Group has essentially painted themselves into a corner, and our pilot group is very aware of it.
If Air Group had started this "concessions or furloughs" BS as late as last year, there's a chance they could have gotten something passed, since our contract was better than other regionals for first year pay, and we could still be picky with hiring, so the "you're overpaid" argument might have had some merit.
Since Air Group waited until the middle of this year to start pushing for concessions, they've seen three other regionals (including SKW) get contracts that included substantial raises in first year pay and other pilot-friendly changes, which means Air Group has seen their bargaining position steadily erode, and the situation just keeps getting worse as more regionals have to bump pay to attract pilots to keep pace with attrition.
When you combine that with QX's lack of jets, hiring bonuses, flow, or a meaningful future resulting in fewer applicants and less qualified new hires (and every other regional currently hiring like crazy), Air Group has essentially painted themselves into a corner, and our pilot group is very aware of it.
Entirely agree. What I'm wondering is if these new jets are supposed to be flying in Q1 of 2017 then the options for how this plays out are pretty limited. Either the company needs to sharply change direction in negotiations or they need to push that date back. They're up against the wall right now, they have maybe four months as an absolute max? If whatever we end up voting on smells even slightly like a concession it's not going to pass. A failed TA would burn up time they don't have right now.
12-01-2015, 07:15 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by snackysmores
"Early 2016" was mentioned by CEO. Union was about to release negotiation details but the company begged them not to and went back to the table. Haven't heard anything since.
12-01-2015, 07:52 AM
#137
Sitting and scratching...
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Upright
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by snackysmores
The company knows if we don't get these 8 jets it's all over. We will lose 17 planes at the end of 2017, all the junior FO's will quit because they know they're getting furloughed anyway. Junior CAs will quit before they get displaced back to FO, might as well go build seniority somewhere else.
Our on time performance will drop down to 5-10%, the ship will burn and it will burn well, taking Alaska's stock price with it as 40% of their feed is destroyed with no one to replace the flying. Skywest can't take it because their pilots are already maxed out with 95 hour lines.
Alaska will lose its brand loyalty as all the ****ed off residents in the outstations are forced to make the 2-3 hours drive to Seattle, why stay with Alaska when Delta is cheaper.
The company knows all of this, they aren't stupid. They will still play their cat and mouse bullsh*t with us just to spite us though. Man, Brad Tilden must hate our guts.
Our on time performance will drop down to 5-10%, the ship will burn and it will burn well, taking Alaska's stock price with it as 40% of their feed is destroyed with no one to replace the flying. Skywest can't take it because their pilots are already maxed out with 95 hour lines.
Alaska will lose its brand loyalty as all the ****ed off residents in the outstations are forced to make the 2-3 hours drive to Seattle, why stay with Alaska when Delta is cheaper.
The company knows all of this, they aren't stupid. They will still play their cat and mouse bullsh*t with us just to spite us though. Man, Brad Tilden must hate our guts.
Pilots need to stop caving to fear. Its a different era. The pendulum is swinging back so long as a group doesnt believe the management explanation of whats to come "if you don't take this offer."
12-01-2015, 10:26 AM
#138
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,210
Originally Posted by Phteven
Entirely agree. What I'm wondering is if these new jets are supposed to be flying in Q1 of 2017 then the options for how this plays out are pretty limited. Either the company needs to sharply change direction in negotiations or they need to push that date back. They're up against the wall right now, they have maybe four months as an absolute max? If whatever we end up voting on smells even slightly like a concession it's not going to pass. A failed TA would burn up time they don't have right now.
12-01-2015, 10:39 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by pete2800
This is one reason I think the aircraft are headed for SkyWest. We'll get something to vote on, it will be concessionary, and it'll get voted down. We'll hear "We don't have time to attempt another TA, the aircraft have to be in service in 8 months, and as a result we reluctantly have to place the aircraft at an established jet operator." SkyWest will raise their first year pay again, their upgrade time will drop as a result of new airplanes, and new hires will flock to them.
So what's it going to be Brad? Are you going to F your employees, your customers, your stock price, and reputation just save a couple bucks if any?
12-01-2015, 10:53 AM
#140
Respek
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,603
If they go to SkyWest the only people getting screwed would be QX employees. Stock price shouldn't change as a result of placing them at a cheaper company and I'm sure he could care less what his reputation is amongst a pilot group when the board supports him. Jets on property will only benefit a small group of Horizon pilots anyways let's hope they don't cave to concessions just to get back into a jet.
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