They're something different, and still look professional. I like them.

But then again, you always get your arm chair CEO's in one place or another

 

It appears that you have misconstrued what I'm talking about.

You haven't seen me say a thing about ticket prices, snickers bars, value to the public, airline rivalries, or one airline out-competing the other. I've total avoided mentioning anything to do with the marketplace that the public operates in. You somehow have focused on it as justification for non-union workers. In my opinion, this is somewhat a scab mentality.

My focus has been on work rules, conditions, retirement, crew forces and the things you bargain for through a collective agreement. It really doesn't matter to me what "product" the airline sells; what matters to me is how a crew force protects the work conditions which have become industry standard.

Want to know the difference between a union and a non-union crew force? The union crew force isn't jealous of the non-union crew force. There is not one aspect of JetBlue that "I" have discussed that is better then what a union crew force has bargained for. Union crew forces haven't asked for FAA exemptions to existing rules, don't bargain for individual contracts, and have a unified crew force as a buffer to the management railroading them on work conditions.

The only thing I really need to apologize for is poking fun at the blue shirts. If you are proud of the blue shirt, more power to you. I suppose it answers the ancient zen like question: "When two clowns meet, do they smile?".

 

Joey,

Before you judge others on union or no union you might want to look in the mirror and realize you share a part in the problems we pilots face when it comes to QOL, FARs, pay etc. Its all our jobs to come together and treat each other with respect. You use the term SCAB like you know what it means, not even close.

 

You should reread your own post. You whined about what the public "wants" or "deserves". I was merely responding to that post, not your history of posting here. You sir, haven't a clue what the term scab means. You and your buddy greenface throw the word around, which will eventually cause it to lose its impact. Talk to some rEAL pilots (do you know what rEAL means?). I have numerous friends that stood up to "scabs" and either ended out of the industry or never returned to the left seat with other airlines. Talk to those that left the industry after CAL and after EAL and see if they think those at JB have a "scab mentality".

And what did 25 years of union dues get me? 25 great years of work rules and salary, but you know what? When the chips were down, my union not only said it was ok to terminate my pension, they didn't even file a grievance when unqualified payments were stopped without any sort of negotiation. Find some Pan Am guys that were left on the street when PanAm's ALPA swung a deal with DAL management and ask them what their union did for them. TWA? Forget it. Sure that's the local union in all cases. But just like politics, it is always local.

I don't know what your history is, but talk to some that have walked picket lines, watched families fall apart, suicides, bankruptcies, seen guys selling used cars, about what a scab is. It is not about taking jobs at startups that don't use assests of union carriers. These guys will get a union, when they need one. Just like ALPA was started out of a need. Who would have ever thought that ALPA would be back on CAL's property and the president of ALPA a CAL pilot..........So give it a rest with the scab garbage. You sir, are doing more damage to the industry than these guys. Why? Because you are actually pushing them away from organizing with your rants, flamebait, and illogical thought process, if anyone besides me is paying you a bit of attention.

So one of your best hopes for this industry is for all these independant unions to fall under one umbrella a speak with one voice of authority. Ain't never going to happen, but it sure as hell will never happen with your flaming potential union members. Their union will be local, either way, but will it have ties to national? Keep it up JV, the damage and seeds you are sowing will come back to haunt you one day.

 

I grew up the son of a TI (that's Texas International for those of you that really don't know what a union is), and in my early childhood, went through not one, but two strikes, at TI and CAL. Right now I'm at an ALPA carrier. I've seen and experienced more then any of you can imagine in the dealings with unions.

I never said everyone needs to be in the same union. APA, IPA, ALPA, Teamsters .. I don't care. I'm tired of all of the justifications given by national sized carriers pilot groups who are actively engaged in work rule destroying activities. JB fits the bill to this to a tee. It's not me that better wake up, it's you.

 

JV, I know all about TIA and NYAir. I had friends at NYA that were labeled with the "scab" crown. Were they? Maybe closer to the truth, using assests from another carrier for union busting. Now they are senior ALPA members at CAL. So with your history with CAL and TIA how do you reconcile in your mind the "new" membership of those at CAL? Is it better or worse that they have been "reborn". Would it have been better for the rEAL pilots and original CAL pilots to stay in their seats (another thread) and "live" to fight another day?

And frankly, I don't have to wake up. I am outta here. And the only reason I am not flying in the US, is that my union did nothing, nothing, to try and preserve our retirements. I don't have any dealings with US carriers anymore and am at a place where unions are ILLEGAL. So I have seen both sides of the coin. Is the protection of a union better? No brainer. But don't ever, ever put all your eggs in a union basket. Those that run them will look out for themselves before anything else. Witnessed first hand, United, USAir, PanAm, TWA, Delta......do I need to go on? This is not union bashing it's a reality check for those that drink a different kind of kool aid. We could argue this point adinfinitum. No need to. But your cutesy blue shirt bashing, the bashing of their esprite de corps, calling them not true professional pilots diminishes and lessens any credibility you have.

 

Personally, I have no problem with V or Professor. They are welcome to their opinions. I think that most of the pilots on this forum are able to see past their "slanted and self serving" rhetoric. Unfortunately, this industry started down a bad side road when deregulation was enacted.

Ironically, V and Professor preach that ALPA or some other type of union is a must at B6 and that the fact that we do not currently have one is the sole reason for the demise of the industry pay scales. V, Professor...aren't you guys ALPA? Why did your union allow for your pay scale decrease? I'm not sure that I understand...you mean the union couldn't stop the decline? You're ALPA, c'mon, you shouldn't have lost a cent! You should have been a stronger and more cohesive group...why give up so easy? Oh wait...perhaps the many ALPA regional carriers that have pilots starting at 15K a year while flying RJ's into the same busy airports as the rest of us set the ground work for the decline of the major airline pay. These poor guys should be paid much more than they are, however, ALPA sees this differently and actually negotiated and endorsed these terribly low pay scales for "jet equipment" pilots.

You have got to be kidding me! As a whole our industry has so many problems that have brought us all to our knees from the once lofty heights that many of us were once sitting. B6 did not do this...we kind of helped ourselves down the stairs in some cases. In many cases the government simply pushed us down the stairs with the "anti-labor" bankruptcy court judges. Oh yeah...bankruptcy...did B6 cause that too? I was under the misconception that poor management had something to do with it...just a guess.

 

You are obviously Flamebaiting or completely ignorant of what has been going on in the industry. Which is it?

The drop in pay scales wasn't because ALPA didn't do it's job, they did a hell of a good job, considering what they were faced with. Before the demise of the industry, what carriers were the highest paid with the best benefts? Delta, UAL, Northwest and even USAir, you know the ons represented by ALPA. For my esteemed colleagues of American (APA) and Southwest (SWAPA) they rode the coatails of the ALPA contracts and garnered further improvements.


Nobody likes to take pay and benefit cuts, especially us Pilots, but when you have a Presidential Administration that is completely Anit-labor and allows (actually condones) job outsourcing and permits MGT the use of liberal Bankruptcy Laws to void a UNION contracts and the appoints Bankruptcy Judges who allow it, just what miracle to you expect from ALPA or anyone else for that matter.

What do you think the pay at UAL, USAir. DELTA and Northwest would have dropped to if they didn't have a Union (Specifically ALPA) fighting in the courts. What do you think would happen at JETblue if they went into bankruptcy without any Union or contract protection? What legal entity would fight for the JB Pilots in court........or any other Non Union carrier. Even more importantly, ask yourself where did the payrates come down to? The Capt 320 payrates at most of the Bankrupt properties 320 have dropped to Jetblue levels. I don't blame you personally as I know what it is like to have to feed a family. But to say the wages at Jetblue and other small (mostly non-union carriers) don't have a negative effect is ignorant. You guys need to organize and get a contract. Realistically your first one won't be legendary, but the sooner you guys get on the band wagon the better off every Pilot in the indusrty will be.

I know the Pilots of NW, Delta, UAL and USAir (and many other Airlines Comair, Mesa etc) are really PO'd. They have a right to be, but blaming ALPA for what has happened is misguided.

Wake up man!

 

In Vīs case it was binding arbitration that was the cause of our paycut. Binding arbitration that has been on the property long before he was hired. Itīs gone now and we are currently in negotiations. It might take a while, but we will be raising the bar.

As far as regional pay, itīs been a shame for a long time. However, most of us who flew for regionals realized it was a stepping stone. Donīt mean to hurt anybodyīs feelings but thatīs the truth. With the decline in pay and work rules at the majors more and more regional pilots are trying to make it a career.

V, Sorry for hijacking your thread.

 

this is a contradicting statement. please clarify your point. btw, the regionals are becoming less and less of a stepping stone. esp those like rah and skw., e.g.