InfoGraphic: How Bad BlueJet pay really is
03-15-2018, 06:33 AM
#31
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,547
Originally Posted by queue
I see you ignored my post about comparing pilot pay to pilot pay. You seem to be more concerned with comparing pilot pay to the average pay of everyone else. So do you think that medical doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers, and so on also ought to be paid according to national or regional averages without respect to the value of their profession?
I wonder how you did on SAT reading comprehension because you have seemed to missed the core point twice in a row. You are simply bringing up irrelevant facts in some desperate attempt to connect to and vilify my use of rhetorical technique. Please continue to attack me, I find you very amusing.
I wonder how you did on SAT reading comprehension because you have seemed to missed the core point twice in a row. You are simply bringing up irrelevant facts in some desperate attempt to connect to and vilify my use of rhetorical technique. Please continue to attack me, I find you very amusing.
I might wonder the same about you. My point is acting like a whiny entitled millennial - or worse, actually BEING a whiny entitled millennial - is not an effective tactic for convincing the MEDIATOR, who is ultimately the arbiter that must be convinced, of the rightness of yout cause. If you don't get that, then there probably is no help for you and you wind up being an impediment to more reasonable people who can make a reasoned argument without losing their temper and allowing it to descend to name calling and emotionalism.
And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.
Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.
03-15-2018, 06:40 AM
#32
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Originally Posted by Excargodog
I might wonder the same about you. My point is acting like a whiny entitled millennial - or worse, actually BEING a whiny entitled millennial - is not an effective tactic for convincing the MEDIATOR, who is ultimately the arbiter that must be convinced, of the rightness of yout cause. If you don't get that, then there probably is no help for you and you wind up being an impediment to more reasonable people who can make a reasoned argument without losing their temper and allowing it to descend to name calling and emotionalism.
And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.
Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.
And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.
Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.
03-15-2018, 06:43 AM
#33
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,547
Originally Posted by PasserOGas
Those sites point out that the median income in those cities is higher than the US avereage. Not sure your point, except to reenforce that B6's domiciles are expensive and this compounds the effect of our abysmal pay.
After the $$$ spent, years of training and "paying my dues" I couldn't care less about what office workers make. I am not median and niether are you. Stop refering to it. It doesn't apply here.
After the $$$ spent, years of training and "paying my dues" I couldn't care less about what office workers make. I am not median and niether are you. Stop refering to it. It doesn't apply here.
Now you can either ego-trip and act like a jerk or you can use tactics that actually work. Which would you prefer?
03-15-2018, 06:45 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: FO
Posts: 435
Originally Posted by AYLflyer
This is where you don't win/gain any sympathy from the general public.
All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.
Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.
Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"
It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.
All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.
Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.
Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"
It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.
03-15-2018, 06:55 AM
#35
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Excargodog
I might wonder the same about you. My point is acting like a whiny entitled millennial - or worse, actually BEING a whiny entitled millennial - is not an effective tactic for convincing the MEDIATOR, who is ultimately the arbiter that must be convinced, of the rightness of yout cause. If you don't get that, then there probably is no help for you and you wind up being an impediment to more reasonable people who can make a reasoned argument without losing their temper and allowing it to descend to name calling and emotionalism.
And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.
Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.
And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.
Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.
Secondly, your previous posts are incongruent with either my initial point or my retort point. You answered a question or point that was never made. Why bring up such logically irrelevant apples to oranges comparisons?
Thirdly, I am not trying to convince an arbitrator. I wouldn't use APC for that. APC is for marketing, just like some of the emails that ALPA sends out. We don't get to make law or exercise law here. However, we do operate in the domain of public opinion and market forces. But I'm sure you realized this....
Why are you so concerned about literary technique given we are not in court? Could it be because you know that BJ pilots are horribly underpaid compared to their market peers and somehow that conflicts with your agenda?
Could it be because you know I am correct to denounce your irrelevant comparison to national averages without respect to profession? Are you content with your subpar pay? Are you content with your subpar work rules and lack of contract? Are you content with the disrespect your employer has for you and your profession?
PLEASE... continue!
03-15-2018, 06:56 AM
#36
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,547
Originally Posted by PasserOGas
The mediator isn't there to descide the rightness of our cause. He is there to facilitate negotiations and release us when an impasse is reached. It isnt his job to pick our pay scales.
03-15-2018, 07:07 AM
#37
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Excargodog
Some areas in those locales are. Some aren't. One can hardly expect to be the most highly paid person in every community unless one is Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos. To do so is an unreasonable expectation. Once you convince the Arbitrator that your demands are unreasonable (extra points for demanding them in a threatening or demeaning manner) you have gone a long way towards LOSING the arbitration.
Now you can either ego-trip and act like a jerk or you can use tactics that actually work. Which would you prefer?
Now you can either ego-trip and act like a jerk or you can use tactics that actually work. Which would you prefer?
Also, on the topic of tactics that work, what HASN'T worked is putting out dry statistics to people that are not already sympathetic to pilots. The Daily Show (which I hate being leftist disinformation) is far more effective at accomplishing their objectives than a Senator on CSPAN. Personally, I watch CSPAN but most people don't. Part of our objective ought to be the penetration of the public opinion of pilots. This has to be done using a variety of non-traditional techniques. Claiming I'm using hyperbole is an exaggeration. Hyperbole would be like saying that JB pilots are paid 80% below their peers. Otherwise you are simply comparing literary techniques subjectively. It's not like I'm creating a false narrative claiming Russian collusion.
Perhaps you should be more energized to direct your opposition to your employer. They are the ones saying that JBALPA isn't bringing propositions to the table via company email. Why don't you start tearing apart the latest anti-union email from BJ on its merits. It's quite the work of spin.
Equal pay for equal work.
03-15-2018, 07:08 AM
#38
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,547
Originally Posted by queue
Firstly, I'm not a millennial. I'm quite old.
Secondly, your previous posts are incongruent with either my initial point or my retort point. You answered a question or point that was never made. Why bring up such logically irrelevant apples to oranges comparisons?
Thirdly, I am not trying to convince an arbitrator. I wouldn't use APC for that. APC is for marketing, just like some of the emails that ALPA sends out. We don't get to make law or exercise law here. However, we do operate in the domain of public opinion and market forces. But I'm sure you realized this....
Why are you so concerned about literary technique given we are not in court? Could it be because you know that BJ pilots are horribly underpaid compared to their market peers and somehow that conflicts with your agenda?
Could it be because you know I am correct to denounce your irrelevant comparison to national averages without respect to profession? Are you content with your subpar pay? Are you content with your subpar work rules and lack of contract? Are you content with the disrespect your employer has for you and your profession?
PLEASE... continue!
Secondly, your previous posts are incongruent with either my initial point or my retort point. You answered a question or point that was never made. Why bring up such logically irrelevant apples to oranges comparisons?
Thirdly, I am not trying to convince an arbitrator. I wouldn't use APC for that. APC is for marketing, just like some of the emails that ALPA sends out. We don't get to make law or exercise law here. However, we do operate in the domain of public opinion and market forces. But I'm sure you realized this....
Why are you so concerned about literary technique given we are not in court? Could it be because you know that BJ pilots are horribly underpaid compared to their market peers and somehow that conflicts with your agenda?
Could it be because you know I am correct to denounce your irrelevant comparison to national averages without respect to profession? Are you content with your subpar pay? Are you content with your subpar work rules and lack of contract? Are you content with the disrespect your employer has for you and your profession?
PLEASE... continue!
But the issues should be the subpar work rules and lack of a contract, not red fonts and emotion laden words proclaiming how horrible it is.
Use that sort of argument here - or let it go un rebutted - and you shouldn't be surprised when it is used in a more public forum where it will fall flat resoundingly.
You will never convince anyone of your professionalism by out whining the other guy and few people like people who wrap themselves in victimhood. I paid $40K to the IRS last year despite every legal tax avoidance which I think is more than they deserved to get, but were I to gripe about it to Joe six pack all I'm going to get is "You give me your income and I'll be happy to pay your taxes."
There are arguments that work and there are arguments that just leave you looking like a self-entitled twit. I can't stop you from choosing the latter, but I can opine that it's not your best move.
03-15-2018, 07:27 AM
#40
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,887
Originally Posted by AYLflyer
This is where you don't win/gain any sympathy from the general public.
All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.
Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.
Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"
It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.
All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.
Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.
Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"
It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.
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