JetBlue vs Frontier
02-03-2019, 07:41 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320 F.O.
Posts: 1,386
Originally Posted by The701Express
A few thoughts on the financial aspect of the Frontier vs. JetBlue decision:
Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.
This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.
From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...d366312ds1.htm
Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.
While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?
From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.
Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.
I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.
The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.
JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?
I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.
Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.
Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.
This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.
From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...d366312ds1.htm
Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.
While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?
From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.
Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.
I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.
The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.
JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?
I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.
Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.
02-03-2019, 07:43 AM
#102
Layover Master
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Position: Seated
Posts: 4,310
Originally Posted by Climbto450
Spot on assessment. One more note from a line pilot at JB. I have flown with a hand full of recently hired (last couple of years) FOs from Frontier. I don’t know of anyone who has left JB to go to Frontier. Just food for thought..
And thank you 701 for the analysis. Definitely thoughts that have been going through my head. The debt ratio at Frontier has to be interesting. I also don't know the time from for their orders to be delivered. I've always favored organic, slow growth, but I've also seen myself make poor airline decisions, and miss opportunities for being too conservative... tough.
02-03-2019, 10:31 AM
#103
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by The701Express
A few thoughts on the financial aspect of the Frontier vs. JetBlue decision:
Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.
This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.
From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...d366312ds1.htm
Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.
While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?
From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.
Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.
I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.
The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.
JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?
I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.
Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.
Frontier is privately owned by Indigo Capital, meaning there is much less transparency into their finances than a publicly held company, like JetBlue.
This isn't as impactful as other factors such as CBA, bases, and aircraft orders, but I feel it is an issue that underlies them and can have long term consequences, making it worth some consideration.
From a few financial tidbits we've seen throughout Indigo's ownership of Frontier, they seem to be doing a good job of turning the airline around, cutting costs, increasing revenue, and driving up profitability. The latest data I can find with a quick google search is from a 2017 SEC filing when they were considering an IPO, with the last full year data for 2016.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...d366312ds1.htm
Since Indigo balked at that IPO, it raises some questions in my mind about their thought process and motivation behind those decisions. It's completely possible and plausible that Indigo is making so much money right now that they don't have much incentive to IPO.
While that would be welcome news for someone desiring a financially secure airline to make a career at, the lack of transparency into the sources of that revenue make me suspicious. Is that revenue coming from passenger revenue? Ancillary fees charged to those passengers? A Frequent Flyer or credit card program? Or is there some other source of revenue?
From casual lurking on this website and talking with a few friends at Frontier, I've heard about their practice of leasing back airframes upon delivery that were originally purchased. I'm not familiar with the frequency or scope of this practice at Frontier, but if it is happening and is boosting revenue at Frontier, that seems like prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability, which for someone looking to make a long term career decision could carry consequences later on.
Perhaps Indigo just felt the market wasn't in a good position for an IPO and decided to hold off for external factors, unrelated to the financial performance of the airline. I don't know and I'm guessing few outside of Indigo know either, but it's an important question to ponder.
I don't have all of the answers to these questions. I'm not in the OP's position, so I haven't done nearly the amount of research I would, were I needing to make this decision. But given the fickle nature of ULCC growth, opening routes to probe a market and abandoning them if profits don't follow soon, would give me pause when considering the long term viability of a base, especially a new one like PHL, that is also a legacy fortress hub. Combine that with Indigo's hesitation to IPO, and I see several possible risks involved with choosing Frontier.
The lack of transparency into the financial health and dynamics of Frontier makes an informed decision more difficult in comparison to JetBlue.
JetBlue has its faults, which have been duly noted on this thread and forum overall. One of the greatest strengths JetBlue does have is its strong balance sheet, with low debt levels, ownership of numerous assets, etc. The operation is a mess, but that mess and taking advantage of years of low oil prices has produced a lot of value for the company, which with some exceptions, has been invested in a pretty smart fashion from a financial perspective. Many on here are right in their anger that the company invests so much into sideshows like Tech Venture and Travel Products, and I'm right there with them. I'd prefer to see greater investments directly into the employees and operation to increase morale, incentivize efficiency, and improve reliability. Despite all that, these major investments in aircraft, real estate, and subsidiaries signal a commitment by the JetBlue BOD and management to playing the long game. How confident are you, given the information available, in Frontier and Indigo's long term commitment?
I tried my best to keep any speculation and judgment out of raising these issues. It's hard to look at these different issues from a completely neutral position, but I hope I gave you a few new questions to find your own answers to when making this decision, OP.
Good luck solving the risk vs. reward equation and finding a career path that works for you and your family.
I will say however, Indigo was very successful turning Spirit into a very profitable and stable company. I doubt very much that Frontier is struggling. Indigo is not incompetent.
02-03-2019, 12:30 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by PasserOGas
Only 2 groups to blame for our CBA, ALPA and ourselves.
To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.
I think it’s only fair to acknowledge the truth.
02-03-2019, 01:59 PM
#105
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by benzoate
I think it’s fair to separate ALPA from Jetblue ALPA.
To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.
I think it’s only fair to acknowledge the truth.
To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.
I think it’s only fair to acknowledge the truth.
Agree that ALPA national is not at fault for our mediocre contract. ALPA local negotiators obviously tried very hard, I don't think it would be fair to say otherwise. But, they faced a RUTHLESS management and we're backed by very meek group through most of the negotiating period. That was changing, finally, near the end of the process and that is what I find most frustrating. This group was FINALLY finding their testicles and we were going into the summer peak with Wall Street very unhappy with the overall situation.
We should have stayed at the table in May for some additional value.
Who's to blame?
In order from most responsible to least:
1. Company.
2. This meek group with low expectations and no fight for the first 3 years.
3. ALPA local not taking advantage of our strong position in May as well as their lack of ability to get the troops/membership fired up MUCH earlier in the process.
02-03-2019, 06:17 PM
#106
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Originally Posted by benzoate
I think it’s fair to separate ALPA from Jetblue ALPA.
To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.
I think it’s only fair to acknowledge the truth.
To be perfectly clear Jetblue ALPA screwed us. National provided Jetblue ALPA with every available resource and Jetblue ALPA and this meek pilot group still screwed it up.
I think it’s only fair to acknowledge the truth.
02-03-2019, 07:55 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320 F.O.
Posts: 1,386
Originally Posted by PotatoChip
That's good to know, but that's also pre-contract and pre-East Coast base FWIW.
And thank you 701 for the analysis. Definitely thoughts that have been going through my head. The debt ratio at Frontier has to be interesting. I also don't know the time from for their orders to be delivered. I've always favored organic, slow growth, but I've also seen myself make poor airline decisions, and miss opportunities for being too conservative... tough.
And thank you 701 for the analysis. Definitely thoughts that have been going through my head. The debt ratio at Frontier has to be interesting. I also don't know the time from for their orders to be delivered. I've always favored organic, slow growth, but I've also seen myself make poor airline decisions, and miss opportunities for being too conservative... tough.
02-26-2020, 04:00 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 150
I have a friend that is in the same predicament. They have offers at both JetBlue and Frontier. They live in-base with Frontier (ORD) but it's their smallest base and it has been stagnant for years. They may grow the base with some of their new plane orders, but that also requires adding gates which may or may not happen.
I'm pushing him towards JetBlue because it seems like a better company overall. Frontier is a riskier move, though the payoff may be higher. I just think Franke and Co. are a big risk to Frontier, and frankly, they're not innovating. To assume they can just pull of a Spirit 2.0 isn't that simple.
I'm pushing him towards JetBlue because it seems like a better company overall. Frontier is a riskier move, though the payoff may be higher. I just think Franke and Co. are a big risk to Frontier, and frankly, they're not innovating. To assume they can just pull of a Spirit 2.0 isn't that simple.
02-26-2020, 08:36 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 555
Originally Posted by 6ix9ineYearFlow
I have a friend that is in the same predicament. They have offers at both JetBlue and Frontier. They live in-base with Frontier (ORD) but it's their smallest base and it has been stagnant for years. They may grow the base with some of their new plane orders, but that also requires adding gates which may or may not happen.
I'm pushing him towards JetBlue because it seems like a better company overall. Frontier is a riskier move, though the payoff may be higher. I just think Franke and Co. are a big risk to Frontier, and frankly, they're not innovating. To assume they can just pull of a Spirit 2.0 isn't that simple.
I'm pushing him towards JetBlue because it seems like a better company overall. Frontier is a riskier move, though the payoff may be higher. I just think Franke and Co. are a big risk to Frontier, and frankly, they're not innovating. To assume they can just pull of a Spirit 2.0 isn't that simple.
We have been pulling "spirit 2.0" for the last 6 years very successfully. Now the operation on other had is a different issue, however just looking at performance B6 isn't that much better.
02-26-2020, 09:20 AM
#110
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,581
Originally Posted by ULLI
Yes ord is very stagnant. Has been, I am not based there so can't provide any juicy rumors. I have been commuting for Frontier since day 1, it's extremely stressful and a waste of time to the point where I will most likely move to a base. That aspect in terms of quality of life goes a long way.
We have been pulling "spirit 2.0" for the last 6 years very successfully. Now the operation on other had is a different issue, however just looking at performance B6 isn't that much better.
We have been pulling "spirit 2.0" for the last 6 years very successfully. Now the operation on other had is a different issue, however just looking at performance B6 isn't that much better.
If the previous poster is set in ORD and moving isn't an option then it might be worth it to try F9 and hope for the ORD base ASAP. Maybe try pumping up the UA/AA apps while they are at it.
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