Fly an E190 & want to work for JB founder?
 

Interesting twist about JB’s founder’s new start up - will start early with ex-Azul E190s. 60 A220s still on order too. Not many details yet from Neeleman. Here’s the article:

https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/neeleman-plans-jump-on-moxy-with-outgoing-azul-e-jets/

Again, not many details yet...

There’s a little more here:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...2-brazils-azul

And here:

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...ts-new-airline

That’s interesting. Still a bit vague but some added details.

Now that’s a golden opportunity for the guys on this forum that are very unhappy with B6.

You're perfect for your new employer.

"Don't expect peer compensation or QOL, just leave".

My post was actually sarcastic. All the guys complaining on here will never leave. I understand their plight but posting on these boards is not the most effective means of getting things done.

Trust me, I want Delta level profit sharing too.

The most effective means of getting things done is simple.

Vertical learning curve.

Some seem to have a curve-shaped like Kansas ... flat. I.E. they never or refuse to learn because of position within the organization (project pilot, etc) or are a slow learner because that is how we were brought up. To act with character, values, and integrity. I support that but just not in a business that is a one-way street.

The pilot group needs to have an Empire State Building curve. Vertical.

Otherwise, the cycle of learning is continual and we will never get there as a group. We have 19-year pilots who ignore the facts, we have 10-year pilots who are still hopeful and then we have new hires.

We are not on the same page. How do we get there? Experience. Kansas or Empire State Building!

The company has time on their side and by the time the cycle is run its course and all iterations are exhausted ... all of us will be retired. All of us.

Drop all your allusions. You are cost unit and nothing more.

Act like one and FAST!. Learning complete.

French Carrier Aigle Azur Files for Bankruptcy
September 4, 2019 Jose Antonio Payet News

French carrier Aigle Azur has filed for bankruptcy following some turbulent months of financial difficulties and problems at the corporate level.

Other shareholders include David Neeleman with 32 percent , as reported by FlightGlobal.
----

Getting my app ready.

I'm glad there are things we can agree on.

In addition to BluejetDork's post about education, I would add that the best place to educate the "specials" is the place where the "specials" hang out. APC.

Why the incremental difference?

The profitability of the company or size relative to Delta or is it something else?

"Edumated" us!

Just don't a major type salary or benefits...

Again, why the incremental difference between DAL and B6?

What are you asking me? Why does Delta get paid more?

Perhaps their company has been around much longer and is much bigger and more profitable?

Because you don't know why as evidenced by your reflex response above while at the same time you keep telling those of us who are unhappy to leave.

Age of company in relation to pay is mostly irrelevant, assuming the company is well-established, which JetBlue is. This isn’t a startup anymore. Jetblue has also had a larger profit margin than other companies. It made more money per seat per departure than any other airline at one point in negotiations (I think that’s recently decreased due to poor performance however). In other words, they could afford to pay its pilots industry leading pay and still make a ton of money. While delta makes more overall money, they also have a lot more pilots to pay. What matters is the margin, or per capita revenue/profit. And JB has been one of the most consistently and most profitable airlines. During negotiations, the company never once said they couldn’t afford every ALPA ask. They just didn’t want to pay for it. They worded it as “we want to retain our competitive advantage and keep our costs down.” But when asked directly, they never once used the “We can’t afford to pay you industry leading pay” line that is so often spouted by company defenders who are just happy to be here and are fine working for less.

You’re new so you get a pass...but don’t buy that line for a second. Jetblue can absolutely afford to pay us in line with our legacy/SWA peers. Pilot pay has never bankrupted a company, despite management wanting you to believe it has or will. Nor will it limit growth opportunities. Keep in mind, jetblue recently bought back what, $1.5 billion in stock? If jetblue couldn’t afford to pay us industry leading pay, they also couldn’t afford to buy back that much stock. Nor could they afford to buy the majority of its A321s with cash.

The reason is simple.

Management keeps changing the formula.

Up until 2006, the formula was simple.

15% of pre-tax profit divided by company-wide eligible earnings = profit sharing percentage. Basically the standard formula across airlines and other industries.

Then the monkey business started.

It changed to:

15% of pre-tax profit divided by company-wide eligible earnings = profit-sharing percentage - 500 basis points (5% cliff).

Then it changed again:

10% of pre-tax profit divided by company-wide eligible earnings = profit-sharing percentage - 500 basis points (5% cliff).

That is what turned what should have been 8.7% into 0.02%. Not the size of DAL compared to BlueJet or the age difference. Greed and then blame-shifting that the gullible swallow hook line and sinker.

But we have some newbie pointing to the size of DAL as the reason. Talk about mouth wide open and ready for the juice.

Learn your history before dropping your: "if you don't like it leave" BS. It's old and the company is not waiting for the pilot group to smarten up. They have time to wait!!!

Why pilots continually work against themselves and trust those how are not in their ranks is extremely strange. They must screen for that trait.

Drop it!

It's not 0.02%.

0.2%

Or

0.02.

Take your pick

Should have been 8.7%

Come on, you're trying to make JetBlue look bad by being off by 18/100ths of a percentage point.

If things are so bad here why don't you just leave, and let us be happy and content with the scraps we get? :rolleyes:

0.002, 0.02 or 0.2% all looks the same on an iPhone screen.

In our paycheck, the 8.5% we lost is very noticeable.

But only if we had DAL size or age we could have a real profit-sharing plan.

If only. [/sarcasm]

Targeted selection at its finest!

Neelemans magic isn't gonna work this time around. Today's environment favors pilots and good contracts. He's gonna have a hard time finding pilots who are willing to work for peanuts. If he does find those suckers they'er gonna quickly find out they are grossly underpaid in comparison to their peers. And that will be where Neeleman will hit a brick wall. He has never dealt with that reality. Times have changed it is no longer 2001.

I agree with you that at 0.2%, it is ridiculous. But if someone posted something positive about JB that was a factor of 10x off, you'd be quick to point out the inaccuracy.

For instance?

10X really? Is that significant in your spectrum world.

To those who are not (my son is, BTW) it doesn't matter since what we are really talking about is the left side of the decimal point.

Not the right side.

Those who try to avoid real issue ... distract.

That is all that you did.

Next time start with:

"Yep you are correct but btw it should be 0.2%, not 0.02%."

You are correct. I was typing and deciding at the same time to either post 0.002 or the % and conflated the two into 0.02%.

Later.

James and BluejetDork nailed it.

I wish you were right, however there are tons of E-Jet Cptn’s & FOs at the regionals that will be willing to work for his start-up. Once the A220s show up it’ll be even more reason for those guys to stay and that airplane will attract other pilots to the airline, too.

He’ll have no problem unless he grossly under compensates them.

Which he will...

Maybe he’s banking on a large recession type event.

Like the liberal media?

They are really banking on a recession.

Where did I say “if you don’t like it leave?”

I simply said that Moxy is an opportunity for JB drivers to leave if they are unhappy. I’ll admit it was sarcastic but dude...relax.

I’m not over here gobbling up blue juice.

You realize tens of thousands of qualified pilots making peanuts at the regionals right? They all have ATP's and type ratings, just like you.

If you think DAL profit sharing is larger because they have more airplanes then you are primed for the Bluejuice.

If you add them up, there are 20,000 pilots working at the regionals.

I predict in the next year or two, as the first of the repeated tsunami waves come crashing, the big 6 will be hiring half of the (non-lifer) regional captains every year, repeatedly. Read that again. Let it soak in.

I bet we will see hiring bonuses at LCC's within the next 3-4 years.

You don't think they would rather go to one of the many high paying airlines?

You don't think they haven't had their apps in for years or decades at those high paying airlines?

It's harder to get hired at delta than admitted to Harvard. What do you not understand about that?

I doubt it. My old flight school in AZ trains 900 pilots a year. One single flight school.

At least at Harvard you could pay some money, fake a waterpolo pedigree and/or make a substantial donation to tip the scales....

And not have to constantly monitor guard for “infractions”.

According to the FAA stats, the average age of ATPs has increased continuously for the last 15 years and is currently 51 years. The average age of CFIs has done the same and is now 48.2 years.

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/av...men-stats.xlsx

2017 and 2018 are the first years that we have seen an increase in pilot training after 14 continuous years of decreases.

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/av...men-stats.xlsx

We have dug a hole we’ll be 5-10 years getting out of.

Delta is by far not the only hiring and paying well. If Moxy pays terrible wages, at this point in time in history, it may very well have trouble staffing the company.