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Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3493030)
I can see you don't make serious posts.
Look at the retirement numbers between Spirit and JetBlue, spirit is a much younger pilot group. The average age of a new hire major airline pilot would statistically prove to be reliable in showing that those hired later, are on average younger, and spirits group, I believe, trends even younger than normal. But at the end of the day, each committee WILL have the DOH data to show the arbitrator, and will have the models to show the future seniority progression destruction of a straight RS integration. Future seniority progression is a known thing, not some hypothetical thing. And it's just as important and relevant as your current relative seniority. You can't have all of one, without taking from the other when age varies as much as it does between these groups. It is impossible for me to see how many of those are younger, but based on DOH vs RS, it looks like the biggest hiring gap is 8 years, most of the time its around 6, and until 2002, DOH favors NK. Pure Guess, worst case scenario, is for a 2005 JB guy getting an extra 400 younger guys ahead. And pure RS wont happen. At 27% RS (because of the biggest gap between DOH and RS): JB #1200 DOH 2006. after merger at DOH #1400 (19%), at RS #2000, at 50% 1600 (22%), so an extra 200 NK in front vs DOH. NK #800 DOH 2014 after merger at DOH 3300 (45%), at RS #2001, at 50% 2700 (36%), so an extra 1900 JB in front vs RS. I don't know what is "fair", just don't believe in slinging numbers without backing it up. |
Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3493094)
Nobody on the JB list will get "a thousand younger NK pilots above" them when going from pure DOH to pure RS. The maximum is 800 extra NK pilots.
It is impossible for me to see how many of those are younger, but based on DOH vs RS, it looks like the biggest hiring gap is 8 years, most of the time its around 6, and until 2002, DOH favors NK. Pure Guess, worst case scenario, is for a 2005 JB guy getting an extra 400 younger guys ahead. And pure RS wont happen. At 27% RS (because of the biggest gap between DOH and RS): JB #1200 DOH 2006. after merger at DOH #1400 (19%), at RS #2000, at 50% 1600 (22%), so an extra 200 NK in front vs DOH. NK #800 DOH 2014 after merger at DOH 3300 (45%), at RS #2001, at 50% 2700 (36%), so an extra 1900 JB in front vs RS. I don't know what is "fair", just don't believe in slinging numbers without backing it up. I had a AA Jumpseating to MSY ask me about the whole B6/NK deal. After a small chat, he finished with telling me that he was a 2001 AA hire (Not TWA) and had a 2013 Airway guy jump in front of him. I will say that no one knows what will happen when the SLI comes to play. Look at pinnacloaba merger and how that ended up. All i know is that it won't be pretty FWIW. |
Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3493094)
Nobody on the JB list will get "a thousand younger NK pilots above" them when going from pure DOH to pure RS. The maximum is 800 extra NK pilots.
It is impossible for me to see how many of those are younger, but based on DOH vs RS, it looks like the biggest hiring gap is 8 years, most of the time its around 6, and until 2002, DOH favors NK. Pure Guess, worst case scenario, is for a 2005 JB guy getting an extra 400 younger guys ahead. And pure RS wont happen. At 27% RS (because of the biggest gap between DOH and RS): JB #1200 DOH 2006. after merger at DOH #1400 (19%), at RS #2000, at 50% 1600 (22%), so an extra 200 NK in front vs DOH. NK #800 DOH 2014 after merger at DOH 3300 (45%), at RS #2001, at 50% 2700 (36%), so an extra I don't know what is "fair", just don't believe in slinging numbers without backing it up. |
Originally Posted by 8JRMfortheyear
(Post 3493207)
I had a AA Jumpseating to MSY ask me about the whole B6/NK deal. After a small chat, he finished with telling me that he was a 2001 AA hire (Not TWA) and had a 2013 Airway guy jump in front of him. I will say that no one knows what will happen when the SLI comes to play. Look at pinnacloaba merger and how that ended up. All i know is that it won't be pretty FWIW.
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Originally Posted by Roy Biggins
(Post 3492053)
All of the above. Throw in circadian rhythm flips.
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Originally Posted by MainlineFlyer
(Post 3492566)
If people would start calling out fatigued instead of flying tired this stuff would stop real quick.
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Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3493244)
That Airway guy only jumped where the arbitrator told him to jump, and so did the AA guy. The SLI has absolutely nothing to do with the pilots. Obviously the respective union reps from both sides will go before the arbitrator and explain why the other group needs to be stapled, that is what they are supposed to do, represent ME. The arbitrator will pretend to listen, and then do whatever he wants, and his ruling is binding. The other guy in the cockpit that used to wear a different shirt? Not his fault if he ended up above or below you. The only thing we can do to improve our QOL is show unity and support ALPA in the fight against management to get a good JCBA.
That would be pointless and a waste of time, not to mention destroy unity for the fight for a great JCBA. Maybe I misunderstood because this, "The only thing we can do to improve our QOL is show unity and support ALPA in the fight against management to get a good JCBA." does not jive with stapling one or the other pilot group. |
Originally Posted by DEM1933
(Post 3493258)
You're not really suggesting that a union rep go before the arbitrator and argue that the other pilot group needs to be stapled!
That would be pointless and a waste of time, not to mention destroy unity for the fight for a great JCBA. Maybe I misunderstood because this, "The only thing we can do to improve our QOL is show unity and support ALPA in the fight against management to get a good JCBA." does not jive with stapling one or the other pilot group. |
Originally Posted by Flyhayes
(Post 3493249)
This is my biggest pet peeve here. And to throw out I sult to injury, it will typically make a pairing uncummutable.
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Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 3493244)
That Airway guy only jumped where the arbitrator told him to jump, and so did the AA guy. The SLI has absolutely nothing to do with the pilots. Obviously the respective union reps from both sides will go before the arbitrator and explain why the other group needs to be stapled, that is what they are supposed to do, represent ME. The arbitrator will pretend to listen, and then do whatever he wants, and his ruling is binding. The other guy in the cockpit that used to wear a different shirt? Not his fault if he ended up above or below you. The only thing we can do to improve our QOL is show unity and support ALPA in the fight against management to get a good JCBA.
Originally Posted by DEM1933
(Post 3493258)
You're not really suggesting that a union rep go before the arbitrator and argue that the other pilot group needs to be stapled!
That would be pointless and a waste of time, not to mention destroy unity for the fight for a great JCBA. Maybe I misunderstood because this, "The only thing we can do to improve our QOL is show unity and support ALPA in the fight against management to get a good JCBA." does not jive with stapling one or the other pilot group.
Originally Posted by FahQ2
(Post 3493281)
That’s not was he was suggesting, he was exaggerating to emphasize that union reps for both groups are duty bound to secure the best possible result, so each will argue for an SLI method that suits them most.
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
(Post 3493296)
Or, you can stop trying to fantasize about ways to screw JB pilots out of a fair integration.
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