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Originally Posted by Steelers
(Post 3604667)
If Robin did this stunt we would all be furious. Give APA a TA and not a nicely wored email.
Our union got us less than this with ZERO QOL improvements. To those who chant "no pay, work rules instead" I would challenge you to explain precisely how much a given rule is worth to the group. Im not saying we should sacrifice things like scheduling protections, or scope *cough LOA17 cough* for pay, but small gains in work rules aren't usually worth much, as the company just puts them into the optimizer and erases most of the gains from them. |
Originally Posted by MainlineFlyer
(Post 3605012)
Speak for yourself. This offer comes with undisclosed QOL improvments.
Our union got us less than this with ZERO QOL improvements. To those who chant "no pay, work rules instead" I would challenge you to explain precisely how much a given rule is worth to the group. Im not saying we should sacrifice things like scheduling protections, or scope *cough LOA17 cough* for pay, but small gains in work rules aren't usually worth much, as the company just puts them into the optimizer and erases most of the gains from them. |
“The pay is substandard but look at the great overnights in fun places!”
- Company stops scheduling overnights in fun places. ”The pay is substandard but they negotiated 330 rates… I’ll just bid that!” - Company never orders 330s. ”The pay is substandard but look at all these ambiguous work rules! Maybe the company would never abuse the huge gray areas!” - Company put the huge gray areas in the contract for a reason. And the reason was to abuse them. |
Originally Posted by AYLflyer
(Post 3604715)
100%
This is their CEO blatantly saying to the pilots "I know all you care about is hourly numbers, here ya go". It's so predictable and funny that of course people here will think this is a good move. QOL is everything. Give me industry leading work rules and I'll make the money I need to make with it, or have a better at home QOL. It's like back at the regionals where nobody could see past 1st year pay and would take a good pay rate and accept an absolute stinking pile of work rules. Let the union do it's thing. Yes you are not going to jump in negotiations asking for 500 per hr, you ask for industry standard (even the top of the highest carrier, eg. $337 DOS), THEN get the difference between the $337 and the oh so mighty $500 per hr in work rules, soft pay, and QOL. That's how you don't make yourself look unreasonable. You dont take the bottom of the barrel pay and justify it with work rules, while your peers can easily do all that by just flying their given schedule. That is the worst attitude to have going into a JCBA with significant leverage. This is why we can't have nice things. |
Originally Posted by Bgood
(Post 3605381)
You mean like Spirit? Smh. QOL and work rules are important, soft pay and all. But that doesn't mean we should choose between that and industry standard pay. Get out of that mindset. What if you don't have to find a way to make the money you need to make? What if you can have the work rules, QOL and industry standard compensation package all in one CBA? I know, must be a unicorn right? Check out your peers and see if it's still a unicorn.
Yes you are not going to jump in negotiations asking for 500 per hr, you ask for industry standard (even the top of the highest carrier, eg. $337 DOS), THEN get the difference between the $337 and the oh so mighty $500 per hr in work rules, soft pay, and QOL. That's how you don't make yourself look unreasonable. You dont take the bottom of the barrel pay and justify it with work rules, while your peers can easily do all that by just flying their given schedule. That is the worst attitude to have going into a JCBA with significant leverage. This is why we can't have nice things. |
Originally Posted by Bgood
(Post 3605381)
You mean like Spirit? Smh. QOL and work rules are important, soft pay and all. But that doesn't mean we should choose between that and industry standard pay. Get out of that mindset. What if you don't have to find a way to make the money you need to make? What if you can have the work rules, QOL and industry standard compensation package all in one CBA? I know, must be a unicorn right? Check out your peers and see if it's still a unicorn.
Yes you are not going to jump in negotiations asking for 500 per hr, you ask for industry standard (even the top of the highest carrier, eg. $337 DOS), THEN get the difference between the $337 and the oh so mighty $500 per hr in work rules, soft pay, and QOL. That's how you don't make yourself look unreasonable. You dont take the bottom of the barrel pay and justify it with work rules, while your peers can easily do all that by just flying their given schedule. That is the worst attitude to have going into a JCBA with significant leverage. This is why we can't have nice things. Once again our guys are OR guys. Pay OR work rules, qol OR pay, ps OR pay. We need to be and guys. Pay and work rules, ps and pay, QOL and pay. Again we should go for EVERYTHING and make no apologies about it. It’s not greed it’s the current market. If anything we have also learned how JetBlue will manipulate these rules while our guys say oh we never thought they would. The days of picking qol or pay for a CBA are over. jetblue management is not our friend they are managers and we are there to be managed, it’s simple we are a number. Much like you assume there are alligators in any body of water in FL assume JetBlue will do anything to try to limit pilot costs and build a contract off that. They have their job we have ours. |
Originally Posted by MainlineFlyer
(Post 3605012)
Speak for yourself. This offer comes with undisclosed QOL improvments.
Our union got us less than this with ZERO QOL improvements. In the meantime, you've got the time value of money working for you.... this lesson was learned (by most) from the over a decade of USAir pilots not getting anything because they were too busy fighting with themselves, and unable to agree on anything. Their pilots lost collectively over $2B. Taking the contract when you did was better than a prolonged drawn-out negotiation for what you will get eventually anyway; you certainly weren't going to get it before Delta, AA, and United inked their final deals... and that still hasnt happened. What has happened is AA management by-passed the pilot union and is trying to negotiate in public as if rates were the only issues. |
Originally Posted by Roy Biggins
(Post 3605412)
Who’s saying we have to choose between pay and QOL? Where’s this narrative coming from? Our major concern is the DOJ and a timeline to actually getting a JCBA. Nothing is guaranteed.
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Originally Posted by Bgood
(Post 3606436)
ummm…. ALYflyer. Thats pretty much what is being said. Hence why I quoted his comment.
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Originally Posted by MainlineFlyer
(Post 3605012)
Speak for yourself. This offer comes with undisclosed QOL improvments.
Our union got us less than this with ZERO QOL improvements. To those who chant "no pay, work rules instead" I would challenge you to explain precisely how much a given rule is worth to the group. Im not saying we should sacrifice things like scheduling protections, or scope *cough LOA17 cough* for pay, but small gains in work rules aren't usually worth much, as the company just puts them into the optimizer and erases most of the gains from them. Think you misunderstood where I was going. CEO saying he will do something and delivering a acutal contract are two seperate things. |
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